Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan • Hacker News Board

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#251

Post by romwell » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 12:59 AM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #249

nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

"Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic" It depends how it's implemented. In London, it is a flat fee for the entire day, rather than based on time spent driving within the charging zone, or on distance. More importantly, taxis, which drive around _all_ _day_ _long_ and thereby cause more congestion than private cars (which might be on the road for 1-2 hours) are exempt fr…

How are taxis increasing congestion? One car making ten trips surely leads to less congestion than ten cars making one trip.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#252

Post by rlanday » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 1:07 AM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #210

rlanday wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously there's no "right" for a kid to get into one of those high demand schools though. Otherwise we're already violating the rights of everyone who doesn't get a spot (and/or their parents, if you believe the primary reason they're so motivated to get their kids into these schools is so they can brag about it to other parents).

Obviously there's no "right" for a kid to get into one of those high demand schools though. Otherwise we're already violating the rights of everyone who doesn't get a spot That's not obvious, since it depends on the state and even the district. In districts that determine enrollment geographically, a child does have the right to go their local high school if they are within the zone assigned to that school. This has…

If what school you go to is entirely determined by where you live, you can already buy your kids' way in by buying a house or renting an apartment in the district. I don't think that's fundamentally any different from buying your way in directly, except that it's probably more expensive, since you're essentially forced to also pay for whatever else makes the neighborhood desirable, instead of being able to pay for only the school admission.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#253

Post by rahimnathwani » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 1:10 AM UTC

romwell wrote: post #251

rahimnathwani wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic" It depends how it's implemented. In London, it is a flat fee for the entire day, rather than based on time spent driving within the charging zone, or on distance. More importantly, taxis, which drive around _all_ _day_ _long_ and thereby cause more congestion than private cars (which might be on the road for 1-2 hours) are exempt fr…

How are taxis increasing congestion? One car making ten trips surely leads to less congestion than ten cars making one trip.

Um, no. Cars that aren't doing a journey don't cause congestion, as parked cars don't have cars behind them waiting to get past.

A private car wanting to spend 20 mins driving through the charging zone to get from south London to north London is in the charging zone for 20 mins, and pays the full fee.

A taxi wanting to spend 8 HOURS driving within the congestion zone pays nothing.

EDIT: and taxis spend large amounts of time driving around in circles without any passengers, and without any destination. Private cars don't do that. So even if every taxi passenger journey is replacing a private car journey with the same start and end points, taxis still cause twice as much congestion.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#254

Post by dnautics » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 1:32 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #190

dnautics wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't really happen in the us.

Sure as hell does. Here's the boundaries for the elementary school in my area: https://imgur.com/M1bAKEh . People are flipping out right now in part of one of the adjacent school districts, because they might be redistricted into the Annapolis elementary schools, instead of the Edgewater school on the other side of the river. I'll let you guess why.

wow, that's pretty egregious!

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#255

Post by 8note » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 2:18 AM UTC

lazerpants wrote: post #58

nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

isn't the public school example already true? houses around favourable public schools have higher value, and thus higher property taxes.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#256

Post by Terr_ » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 3:20 AM UTC

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #203

rsync wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In the U.S., a public education is considered a right. Driving is a privilege, not a right, and so the same considerations don't apply." I find this conversation very interesting - first, the thought provoking notion from your parent that supporters of congestion pricing invoke a "libertarian but only for this" exception that they wouldn't apply to other goods like schools. Then your (obvious) reply that driving is…

Roads are by definition not a public good. A public good is non-rivalrous; roads are rivalrous as can clearly be seen if you look outside during rush-hour.

Econo-technically a "common good" then. But on a colloquial level, they're still a-good-that-is-made-available-and-for-the-public.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#257

Post by sugerman » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 4:48 AM UTC

lazerpants wrote: post #58

nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

Parents already pay more to have their kid go to a specific public school in housing costs.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#258

Post by nwah1 » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 4:51 AM UTC

dabbledash wrote: post #232

nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

The objection to this line of thinking has to do with fairness. Time is much more evenly distributed than money.

But not all hours are equally valuable. Some people are able to be flexible. If people know that they will have to pay more for recreational activities during rush hour, they'll be more likely to plan those activities at other times, freeing up the road for people who need to commute.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#259

Post by closeparen » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 5:18 AM UTC

lazerpants wrote: post #58

nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

Because we want more people to be educated, and fewer people to drive.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#260

Post by BoorishBears » Sat, Jan 20, 2018, 5:25 AM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #247

BoorishBears wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my parent's house in CT you can get to Grand Terminal in NYC by: - Taking public transport only: 30 minutes of walking to the nearest bus stop (bus only on the hour btw). 20 minutes on the bus. 2 hrs 30 minutes on a train to Grand Central. All assuming bus and train time line up (they won't since the bus is hourly). - Driving and taking a train: Drive for 30 minutes and take a 2 and a half hour train ride to Gra…

It's foolish to count driving to the train station in CT. Any time the traffic is minimal into NYC, the parking at train stations is also empty. Really everything you cited is fairly naive for getting into and out of the city. Parking is ~$40 a trip unless you can get a street spot (which can be really hard to count on in most neighborhoods). The optimal path is to drive to a train station close to NYC that has frequ…

It's foolish to speak so brashly since you don't even know which part of CT I'm referring to.

They aren't near enough to any train stations to make the trip faster by switching stations. Your "brilliant" drive to a closer train station idea is still a 2 and a half hour total trip time for reaching the same place.

And if your commute daily you're not going to be guessing where you park, you'll probably have a monthly garage.

This all goes back to the parent comment which was just being obtuse. In theory no one "needs" to do anything, we can just sit around all day until we waste away.

People who "need" to commute in their cars really want to commute in their cars. No one is saying it's cheap, but it's a right that people have, and it's not hard to imagine that for some people commuting from NYC to CT daily, doing it by car is preferable to public transit.