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Getting free of toxic tech culture

blog.valerieaurora.org

251–260 of 420 posts

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#251
Women should start up their own companies and show men how to do it better. They can make a company that pursues financial rewards and also balances humanity, compassion, does not seek to enrich itself by hurting others.

The fact that corporations tend not to treat employees as multifaceted human beings does not strike me as a gender issue. In fact none of the feminist items that I've heard since the late 80s strike me as gender issues. Instead, it seems to me that in complaining, feminists ignore the fact that all the same things happen to men too. Most men are not in power. We get passed up for promotion. We get ignored in meetings. We don't get treated like multifaceted human beings and aren't payed what we're worth -- in our opinion.

Roughly 90% of mechanical engineers are men. Roughly 90% of the people in prison are men. If a feminist is going to insist that one is the result of sexism and the other is not, then feminism is going to have serious trust issues in the near future.

It's common these days for activists coming out of humanities departments to deconstruct some area of enterprise, like video games, according to the ontology of feminism. These people, feminists, have been giving themselves a bad reputation for nonsense for many years now. It's difficult to take much of what they say seriously anymore.

Of course Silicon Valley culture is toxic. People are driven to move here not because of a strange affinity for the soul of the machine; but to make money. It seems as if everyone talks the same way, and has the same bland ideas. I'm sure that it's not really that bad, but it seems that way from what we hear on line and off line. Some of the corporate world is invigorating, especially start ups, and I truly enjoyed PG's essays that talked about viaweb and fixing bugs with the customer on the phone. But much of corporate structure is so empty and even deceptive, it pisses me off.

Women are deliberate thinkers. They ruminate on important decisions. In my opinion women should stop blaming other people and take up their own agency, and show us how to do it better. Lead by example. Not as an employee: you'll have to start your own company. To be blunt I believe such an exercise will be humbling for the women who try it. But there's no reason companies can't be structured and run much better by being run by women. There must already be examples out there.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#252

This feels like the perfect timing for me to read this. I just quit my job on Sunday after 1.5 years of trying and failing to get on with the CEO. I'm not sure I want to stay in tech at all. I'd be interested in hearing other people's stories about changing careers entirely -- to sales (I'm not a people person but trying hard to learn the soft skills), to writing a TV show or movie (theatrics and drama are fun), to n…

Tech culture may be considered toxic, in comparison to 90% of other industries it's a utopia.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#253
post #243
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just my observations and opinion.. but, worked with, not at, but generally about equal in raw numbers - it really depends where the docility comes out - in fortune 500's being weird in general is strongly discouraged, but the penalties for stepping out of line are small usually, the big benefit is, cultural norms are clearly established, and generally followed - in a SV company, being weird is strongly encouraged, cu…

So you're saying tech companies have vague 'cultural values' that encourage a certain degree of non-conformity and then harshly punish/fire non-conformists? That doesn't really make any sense, at least, not in the non-specific form you've put it. Right at a time of a fair bit of tech-company culture examination and critique, this particular complaint seems to come up mostly never. How do you explain that? The docilit…

The well defined Fortune 500 culture prevents identity politics from coming into play - the nebulous SV culture does not, there is no line other than 'be yourself' so the out of line issues can violate peoples concept of self, which is clearly bad, and therefor the punishments must be harsh.

To explain further - in F500 Culture, only a narrow band of self expression is possible - but what is and isnt is clearly defined - in SV Culture, a much wider band is acceptable - but the unacceptable is much less clearly defined.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#254
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a manager, you're absolutely responsible for your team member's feelings. Both morally and practically because if they feel bad at work, they'll leave.

I disagree. You are responsible for YOURSELF. If you are being ugly or talking shit - you are responsible for your actions. Saying "you are absolutely responsible for someone else's feelings" is the bat-ass craziest thing I have ever heard [It is not lost on me that I'm making a snarky comment in this thread ;)]. An example: I am talking to someone and make a comment that the other person interprets as threatening or…

This comment breaks the site guidelines in lots of ways: name-calling, snark, using uppercase for emphasis. You can't comment like that anywhere on HN, and certainly not in this thread which was bound to teeter on the abyss from the beginning.

Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and do a better job of following them.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/03/06/chart-the-perce... For web developers, it's 34%, which is roughly the same as dentists. Computer "science" is kinda BS as a field.

In that breakdown, "web developer" very likely includes a large number of designers and marketing specialists. We have firsthand numbers from companies like Google; after years of concerted effort to recruit and retain women, they just hit 20%.

> We have firsthand numbers from companies like Google; after years of concerted effort to recruit and retain women, they just hit 20%.

Is it possible that a "concerted effort to recruit and retain women" perhaps does more harm than good? Med schools in this country are now very nearly 50/50[1] and law schools are very slightly over 50% female[2]. Did medicine and law achieve this by the same type of concerted effort we've seen in tech? I honestly don't know the answer to that but I think it's an interesting question.

I do feel though that we treat females who are doctors as simply doctors (and likewise for lawyers), not female doctors whereas in tech we have a habit of treating them like female developers instead of developers (and I'm referring to when that's done with the best intentions such as female-only hackathons, bootcamps, and meetups).

[1] https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/medical-school-gra...

[2] https://www.enjuris.com/students/ranking-universities.html

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#256
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post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I am not responsible for others feelings. There should be clear rules of conduct at any job and a clear process of enforcement. This make the situation fair and certain. One easy rule is that if someone says "Only talk to me about work." then the other person has to respect it. No forcing of social acceptance , no shaming the other to believe what you believe, just focus on what you were hired for. This i…

So what, you're going to punish someone who mentions they saw the shape of water last night and it was really good? That seems rather ridiculous. Or how about, I'm trying to learn rust and it's pretty neat but also pretty hard. I don't use rust at work. Is that work related enough since it's tech? If I walk up to a coworker and say "You idiot, this damn bug is ridiculous" am I not responsible for them getting upset a…

Would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments in this thread? and not post them to HN in general?

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#257

I left Google for very many of the reasons mentioned in the article and I'm a white male. So I can only imagine how hard it must be for minorities. Thankfully I had the opportunity to make this change early in my career, although my financial situation is suffering dearly for it. And it's hard to swallow when everyone you know is making 2x your salary and just about all of them have a bunch of family money as well. (…

A rich man desires a simple life. A poor man a rich life. There is little sense chasing to play in a game you can never win.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#258
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you describe in what ways SV feels like Animal Farm? > The Orwellian mismatch between rhetoric and action feels like cult-like propaganda to me. Can you list out a few of these actions?

Maybe I should tell the (abridged) tale of XMPP. Once upon a time, XMPP was an open standard that allowed FB, Google, and independent clients federate at once. The reason Google and FB were able to become such popular messengers is because they allowed all sorts of clients to federate with them. This was the world of Pidgin, Trillian, GTalk, Adium, and others. Then Google and FB both closed off their XMPP support, ci…

Small point that I think FB's snapchat clone was called "Poke".

Also XMPP sucked when it came to mobile devices - maybe the right answer was to have a RFC for an improvement to the standard rather than create environments outside of it, but I can see a reasonable argument for biasing towards development speed.

Google kept XMPP support the longest - I think they closed it when everyone else was closed and the others were using Google's remaining XMPP support to farm over Google users while not allowing Google access to do the same. It's a problem with incentives - there was a time when cross service compatibility was important.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#259
post #44

I predict people will claim "our culture isn't that toxic. Some of those things happen, but they don't bother me much." If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. So don't ask "would this bother me?" Ask "would it bother someone?" And since you can't predict this from inside your head, you have to rely on firsthand acc…

It's SJWs who are destroying freedom my always playing the victim card to have power over companies thru social shaming and acting really offended to scare you into apologizing or else you lose your job. Fuck this bullshit ends now.

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Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate on the form of the attacks on white people and men you're seeing in SV companies? I'm both white, male, and at an SV company, and haven't seen them in my experience. From a managerial perspective I'd love to hire more people from underrepresented groups because it would mean a bigger pool to hire from, so I'm all for recruiting efforts, outreach/education programs, etc, but at the end of the day t…

Sure, from Damore’s Google lawsuit: https://twitter.com/mjaeckel/status/950446329603461121

This was guaranteed to produce an off-topic flamewar, one which HN has already litigated to death and well into zombieland. Please don't do that here.

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