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Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

projekte.sueddeutsche.de

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Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#251

Post by zajd »

nickpp wrote: post #224
eecc wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The free market has a natural solution to monopolies, it's called competition - startups." Please provide proof that markets never fail and indeed that the ideal Free Market exists. Take the time, I'll wait...

Sorry, I can't. I am a working man, not a philosopher. But please look around you. Every great thing around me was created by a free(-ish) market: this PC, my car, my job, the materials in my home, the heating engine, the food I get in the restaurant, the entertainment on my TV, everything. Then every crappy experience in my existence has something to do with the government: state hospitals, infrastructure, the DMV a…

You really think the PC is a good example of something "created by a free market" not the result of the govt pouring millions into R&D in the decades previous?

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#252

Post by jason_slack »

hop wrote: post #178

In Mexico, people don’t finish their houses and leave rebar coming out the roof to pay less tax. In Vietnam, the houses are really thin because property taxes are based on width. For an American company selling things overseas, they’re going to setup in Ireland or wherever else because the laws make it advantageous. All these decisions are functions of the laws written, so if they want to complain and write open lett…

> In Vietnam, the houses are really thin because property taxes are based on width.

Really? Interesting. Can anyone explain how taxing the width of the house was established?

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#253

Post by Joeri »

wjnc wrote: post #31
jacquesm wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dear Tim, You don't understand how shares work. Shareholders can only benefit from shares in two ways: through speculation about the share price or through dividends. I'm kind of disappointed that I'd have to explain to a man of your stature that money that Apple parks abroad will not benefit the shareholders except in the most indirect ways. If Apple brought home their overseas funds then it would benefit the US and…

Dear Jacques (i'll stop with the game now ;) - I really emphatise with the social responsibility part of the story. The game Apple is playing with stored cash abroad is abject. Nobody is profiting from that. But we can agree that it's not the nature of a corporation to pay more taxes than necessary? If people offer you crazy deals: agree. Governments should coordinate not to make crazy offers and perhaps even tit-for…

As an individual person, if a law has a loophole, is it ok to exploit that? Say you found a loophole that allowed you to legally get away with murder, is it now ok to commit murder as long as you comply with the loophole? I would argue that what is right and what is legal are never fully aligned, and that the excuse "it was legal" is not a valid defense for committing immoral acts.

Corporations are social constructs, they are entirely made of people. Those people don't stop having a moral imperative to do right by others just by having an employee badge. Just as we require individuals to remain "decent human beings", regardless of what they can legally get away with, we need corporations to remain "decent social citizens". While it is not illegal to maximize profits through tax evasion, it is anti-social, and therefore we shouldn't encourage or applaud that behavior.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#254

Post by zajd »

philliphaydon wrote: post #209
dx034 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't just pay taxes to get back the same amount. Taxes also include redistribution of wealth. In the US, a significant amount pays for social welfare and health insurance for the poor and elderly. That companies with healthy profit margins pay for this appears fairer than if it's just paid by small companies.

Lol tax isn’t about redistribution it wealth.

We have a progressive income tax, at least here in the US. Hard to argue that's not redistributing wealth, although I'd argue it's not enough :)

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#255

Post by bunderbunder »

gaius wrote: post #238
repomies691 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... Basically Apple is increasing the suffering by creating all those laptops and iphones? That is very difficult for me to grasp. Apple creates computers and phones which make peoples lives a lot better, and people are willing to pay for those. Why is the suffering increasing? I guess world would be a better place if apple would pay more taxes, but I'm pretty sure that world would be worse place without Apple, whe…

Apple cannot exist outside of the "ecosystem" of infrastructure and institutions maintained by the State, i.e. ordinary taxpayers. Good luck getting your iPhone without roads, or keeping it without a police force. Tax evading companies like Apple and Google justify it by claiming that they create value in a vacuum, so should keep all of it.

Or, maybe more directly to the point in this case, a communications regulator to control radio spectrum usage, in order to ensure that slices of spectrum are carved out for specific uses, and protected from excessive interference resulting from other uses.

Y'know, the regulation that makes the ubiquitous and reliable microwave, cellular, Wi-Fi, and Bluetooth communications that these companies' products rely on to be useful possible in the first place.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#256

Post by lucozade »

dx034 wrote: post #195
lucozade wrote: post #92

As the "editor-in-chief of the Süddeutsche Zeitung, Germany’s leading daily", why not do something? I don't mean complain, that's already happening, I mean actually do something. For example, ban all Apple products from the paper. Lobby the German government to ban all Apple products until Apple pay a sufficient amount of tax. Use the paper's influence to get people to stop using Apple's services. That sort of someth…

> For example, ban all Apple products from the paper. Lobby the German government to ban all Apple products until Apple pay a sufficient amount of tax. Use the paper's influence to get people to stop using Apple's services. That sort of something. Not sure if they even issue company phones. But if, that's maybe 100 iphones. And how should they lobby a government to ban iPhones? As official phones they're not used any…

> As official phones they're not used

I mean lobby for the ban on the sale of Apple products in Germany. As in, make it illegal to sell Apple products. And if you really want to put the cat amongst the pigeons, make it illegal to buy them.

> Boycotts almost never work

They absolutely can if they're popular enough. And they can in Germany too. If you don't believe me, check out the Shell boycott. And that wasn't officially sanctioned. I think it's reasonable to expect that a 40% reduction in sales in a market as important as Germany would cause Apple to think seriously about its position.

Now, I'm not suggesting for a second that a ban on Apple, or even a boycott, would occur let alone be successful. But that's kind of my point. No-one's going to call for it because it's just not important to anyone. It's posturing.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#257

Post by bsaul »

i think pressure should also come from apple ( and google and amazon..) employees. They work for an objectively "bad behaving" company, they should tell their management that they're not ok with it.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#258

Post by dontreact »

cm2187 wrote: post #233
dontreact wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are fundamentally missing the nature of the loopholes being exploited. They have less to do with the complexity of the taxes in one country but rather the complexity that emerges naturally from different countries having different tax codes. How would a flat tax help avoid this scheme for example?: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/28/business/Doubl... The whole point is they skip the U.S. tax co…

If you don't have control over foreign loopholes, you eliminate them by applying to companies what you apply to individuals in the US. I.e. that US companies may not pay less taxes than they would pay if their activity was all in the US. It would of course increase the effective tax rate in for US large companies a lot, but the US corporate tax rate is very high vs other countries. If it becomes efficient you can aff…

I don't think getting rid of these foreign loopholes is as simple as you think it is. 1. What counts as a "US Company"?

2. So you're proposing that Apple pay the U.S. taxes on sales in Germany? Also that every country should do this?

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#259

Post by tareqak »

Is there a sort of international tax agency (hopefully with the proverbial teeth) like there is the World Trade Organization [0] (WTO) for trade or Interpol [1] for policing?

With my colloquial/urban-legend-style understanding of the fear of being audited for taxes in both Canada and the US, I would be mildly entertained if I ever heard that the "Global IRS" was auditing a multinational corporation.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTO [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#260

Post by nolite »

CamTin wrote: post #140
earthtolazlo wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are welcome to give up your American citizenship if that income tax becomes too burdensome for you.

There are actually things like the expatriation tax and "name and shame" provisions which discourage people from renouncing for tax purposes. Also (note that I am not an accountant or lawyer and this is not advice), most ordinary people won't see any problem with taxation while abroad beyond the actual inconvenience of filing a 1040 because the foreign earned income exclusion ( https://www.irs.gov/individuals/interna…

So making $110k now makes me a rich person with an army of accountants. Got it. Thanks.
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