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USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

arstechnica.co.uk

251–260 of 369 posts

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nuclear part isn’t just used to generate electricity for the motors?

The nuclear power plant is heating water to generate steam.

Which presumably drives a turbine to make electric which can run motors, charge batteries, run scrubbers, run heaters, etc., presumably.

They're not direct driving the screw with steam power from the reactor heat-exchange, surely.

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a nuclear powered ship, yes, since you still essentially have a steam engine, the engine telegraph (throttle) isn't actually linked directly to the engine. On a modern diesel or gas turbine ship, no there's not. Obviously there are limits to what the engine can do still.

The nuclear part isn’t just used to generate electricity for the motors?

The heat from the nuclear reaction in a nuclear power plant is typically just used to boil water, which turns turbines, which creates the electricity.

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't get is that obviously on a military vessel the chance of someone getting injured or incapacitated are rather high - so why would you want critical things like speed to be controlled by a separate person from the one steering? If they get knocked out and the controls for speed/direction/depth are in a physically different location, doesn't that result in a complete loss of control?

On the flip side, if there is an event that incapacitates one person it might not affect all 3 so you still have some control during and right after the event instead of waiting for someone to make their way to the control station

You could have 3 sets of full controls and personnel, that's more redundancy; you need lockout and takeover abilities.

That's how Star Trek do it!

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/CHINFO/USS+Fitzgerald+and+USS+John+S... The McCain entered the TSS at 20 knots and varied between 20 and 18 knots until the steering problem began. The OOD ordered the vessel slowed to 5 knots but due to confusion on the bridge the orders weren't carried out properly and the vessel was still making 11.8 knots and turning to port at the moment of impact. The Fitzgerald was also traveling throug…

Sure, don't believe your lying eyes. Point out a single scratch that indicates anything other thana 90 degree impact with a stationary vessel.

When a car gets t-boned at an intersection, do you always assume it was stationary? Please point out what aspects of the damage has speedometer-like qualities that your eyes are seeing.

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't get me started about TVs. When I grew up our family TV turned on in seconds, and pressing channel up/down reacted in tens of milliseconds.

How long ago? My color CRT TV took a good 10 s or so to warm up the tube before you'd see much/anything. But at least it responded instantly, so you could spend that time walking back to the couch instead of waiting for some stupid menu. Instant and trustworthy response is basically gone from most appliances. I think it's a combination of marketing (has to look high tech) and cost (touch buttons are cheaper than mech…

> Show me a web video player that has play and pause buttons that always do what they say when they say it.

The only player which ever worked properly — even allowing the user to step through a video frame by frame — was part of Apple’s QuickTime framework.

Fun fact: QuickTime will be 26 years old in December.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuickTime

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Automatics are usually less efficient than manuals - the Hydraulic torque converter has to slip to function. That said, the automatic might beat a manual in other metrics.

Modern automatics are almost always more efficient. The biggest is that the torque converter has a lockup clutch during crusing, and often more gears and a near perfect knowledge of when to shift gear.

Do they break more often too? Like TCO is higher?

Automatics in UK certainly cost more, if one doesn't ride the clutch I imagine the manual will have lower maintenance costs?

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

User interfaces have gone backwards decades in quality. Look at your car radio in a 90's car. You didn't need to look at it to figure out how to push the radio button, turn the volume, anything. You could even adjust the bass on the fly with a bass knob instead of navigating to your "eq" menu to do it. Now, you've got to look away from the road, realize what "mode" your in, you can move the menu around to the "audio"…

Don't get me started about TVs. When I grew up our family TV turned on in seconds, and pressing channel up/down reacted in tens of milliseconds.

Y'know how they say "don't touch that dial"? When I grew up, TVs actually still had dials you had to turn. The tuner responded instantaneously when you changed the channel. Now get off my lawn you damn kids.

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#258
post #230
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think PM brought wide attention to it, but it's not like it's just some fringe theory of theirs, see e.g. this CBS report [1] from 2012 (after the PM article was published) with Captain Chesley Sullenberger (of the 2009 Hudson crash fame). Many aviation experts have weighed in on this. Yes they don't have all the data, but they have enough to draw this sort of conclusion, including flight path, status of the plane…

Every Airbus crash gives rise to lots of FUD in the media. Initially, everyone was blaming AF447 on the vertical stabilizer breaking off ( http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-air-france-447-... ). I guess they thought they had "enough" data then, and of course plenty of "experts" were on hand to lend credence to this particular speculation. But anyway, the accident report says what it says. I see no reason t…

Equating initial media speculation not even 3 weeks from the crash when the black box was still at the bottom of the ocean with analysis done after all the data was in by industry experts in flight safety is absurd.

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#259
post #73

There was a ferry accident involving a similar transfer of control problem in New York harbor.[1] Ferries have a lot of maneuvering modes and directional thrusters, because they do so many dockings, and so they have a more complex control problem. The pilot put the system into a backup dumb mode while in cruise, then changed stations to where he could best see the dock while still in the wrong mode. Rammed the dock a…

User interfaces have gone backwards decades in quality. Look at your car radio in a 90's car. You didn't need to look at it to figure out how to push the radio button, turn the volume, anything. You could even adjust the bass on the fly with a bass knob instead of navigating to your "eq" menu to do it. Now, you've got to look away from the road, realize what "mode" your in, you can move the menu around to the "audio"…

Microwave oven UI's are terrible but they weren't always that way. My old Amana had 5 controls: a knob for intensity (never changed it) and a knob for the timer, plus start, stop and light buttons. When the the start button broke we just jammed it in the "on" position with a penny making the UI even simpler: put the food in, and turn the knob for the time.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Cookmatic-Radarange-Made-by...

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#260
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've asked you to state your interests. You've declined to do so.

What a gloriously absurd thing to say. Look, this is me: http://adrummond.net If you're willing to put your real name up here, then we can start speculating on who's being paid by whom to shill for what. Until then, I'll assume that you're on the Boeing payroll... (I don't in general intend this account to be associated with my real identity, so I may remove the link above in a day or two.)

Fair enough. I'm a space alien cat, and choose not to disclose my identity online. Though I can assure you if I'm on Boeing's payroll, they've been severely delinquent in remittances.

That said, there might be a more productive discussion, perhaps in future, on linguistics rather than French aviation mishaps.

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