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A “right to repair” movement tools up

economist.com

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Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#251

Post by dx034 »

4ad wrote: post #17
yahna wrote: post #15

How about right to use your stuff how you want? Like not paying 10s of thousands for a Tesla that has a clause against using autopilot with ride sharing services other than Tesla.

Where do I find all this mythical stuff that I want? I want a new car with no software, no computers, no GPS, no radio, no power windows, no keyless entry, no thermostat. Where do I find it? Realistically I can only chose between crap I don't want. And if I buy an older car, not only I have to deal with problems that would otherwise be avoidable if I bought a new car, but the government doesn't want me to use old car…

Not sure about the US but in Europe there are some cheaper cars that have basically no "extras" in the cheapest model. You'll end up with some softwares and computers but probably close to what you'd get in any 10y old car. And it's cheap, the Dacia Sandero costs But you'll also end up with a less secure car probably.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#252

Post by vkou »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #243
thechao wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought that a regulation along the lines of "if you sell it, you must give the customer the ability to dispose of it" would be nice. And, yes, I do think that means Amazon would have to have some sort of bricks-and-mortar operation: at minimum there must be a shop owned by someone , which Amazon has a deal with, that you'd be able to drop your discarded Amajunk off at. Also, I also think we should have a ca…

> Also, I also think we should have a carbon recapture tax added to gasoline That can't work for any country that has "country". In the US, the vast majority of goods are delivered using trucks that burn diesel. You can't have a gas tax without a diesel tax. Everyone would just switch over. If you tax gas, you effectively tax everything , and that's not okay for any economy.

> If you tax gas, you effectively tax everything, and that's not okay for any economy.

Why? The purpose of the carbon tax is to capture the negative externality of carbon pollution, and to encourage more energy-efficient industries. Not all parts of the economy use equal amounts of energy, and we should encourage the energy-efficient ones.

I burn carbon when I drive my car to work. I burn much less carbon when I take the bus to work. We want to encourage the latter - carbon taxes let the market do this encouragement. The alternative is doing so by government fiat.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#253

Post by GhostVII »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #243
thechao wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought that a regulation along the lines of "if you sell it, you must give the customer the ability to dispose of it" would be nice. And, yes, I do think that means Amazon would have to have some sort of bricks-and-mortar operation: at minimum there must be a shop owned by someone , which Amazon has a deal with, that you'd be able to drop your discarded Amajunk off at. Also, I also think we should have a ca…

> Also, I also think we should have a carbon recapture tax added to gasoline That can't work for any country that has "country". In the US, the vast majority of goods are delivered using trucks that burn diesel. You can't have a gas tax without a diesel tax. Everyone would just switch over. If you tax gas, you effectively tax everything , and that's not okay for any economy.

> If you tax gas, you effectively tax everything, and that's not okay for any economy.

Why not, we already tax everything as it is right now? And lots of places have carbon taxes, it works fine.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#254

Post by GhostVII »

gjem97 wrote: post #233

I really get frustrated at how many small appliances I end up throwing out. It just doesn't make sense to repair a food processor that breaks. This stuff that's made with a plastic housing doesn't last more than 5 years in my house. Then I look over at my Kitchenaid mixer. You know the iconic one that would look right at home in the kitchen of the 1960s. It's constructed durably, it's repairable, and people go out of…

> Why can't all appliances be like my Kitchenaid mixer?

Because people don't like to spend extra for quality products. For most appliances, there are brands that sell quality versions which will last for years, but lots of people just look for the lowest priced one with the features that they want, and buy it.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#255

Post by pc86 »

Filligree wrote: post #248
pc86 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't that make sense, though? If you have a physical product that you use daily, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to ask how a failure after 700+ uses (or many, many more) can be confirmed as a manufacturing issue and not use [over|mis|ab]use.

How can a user prove they didn't misuse an item, though?

That would depend on the specific item, I'm sure. For example you can tell if a phone has ever been wet because there will be signs on the interior. No situation will be perfect but at some point the burden of proof has to shift from the company to the user. I think six months is probably a bit soon but sometime between that and two years seems reasonable to me.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#256

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

gjem97 wrote: post #233

I really get frustrated at how many small appliances I end up throwing out. It just doesn't make sense to repair a food processor that breaks. This stuff that's made with a plastic housing doesn't last more than 5 years in my house. Then I look over at my Kitchenaid mixer. You know the iconic one that would look right at home in the kitchen of the 1960s. It's constructed durably, it's repairable, and people go out of…

At this point, I'd be glad to pay double for a washer, dryer, refrigerator, or microwave that lasted more than 7 years. But no matter the gamut of models available at Sears or Lowes, they're all made by the same few manufacturers, and they're all crap. The only option is to pay TEN times as much for commercial-grade units.

And I'm considering it.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#257

Post by kps »

gjem97 wrote: post #233

I really get frustrated at how many small appliances I end up throwing out. It just doesn't make sense to repair a food processor that breaks. This stuff that's made with a plastic housing doesn't last more than 5 years in my house. Then I look over at my Kitchenaid mixer. You know the iconic one that would look right at home in the kitchen of the 1960s. It's constructed durably, it's repairable, and people go out of…

That's why I preferentially buy old used tools. Not everything made in the past was good quality, but the things still around are.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#258

Post by occultist_throw »

dom0 wrote: post #197
occultist_throw wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just cypherpunks and hardware hackers. We in the occult communities also very much believe in the same ideals. In fact, this saying is what this discussion reminded me of: Nidhogg's Rule: Recycling. There is no such place as Away, so be careful what you throw there. Recycle, give away, don't waste, find a place for it somewhere else. This includes people as well as things. http://www.northernpaganism.org/rok…

Current policy overemphasizes recycling. Recycling is the last resort . First reduce or reuse, which are far superior. Throwing away would normally not even be a serious option, but this world's people are kinda brain damaged.

Indeed. But I would set the blame at manufacturers at this view.

The last time I got a circuit schematic was with my Icom radio. And even with that, still received none of the firmware. "Proprietary".

Ideally, mechanical drawings, circuit schematics, and firmware would enable a great deal of repair and 3d party parts replacement. But the idea of allowing that isn't capitalist - in fact it goes directly against selling more to replace (planned obsolescence).

I would heartily like to have a library of parts I can refer to, designs I can 3d print parts as needed, firmware access to correct issues. But this all flies in direct opposition with "commercial" opportunities, save a very few.

It's also why I highly prefer free/open source hardware, with as much details how it works available. That's the only way to guarantee that your hardware doesn't get abandoned - there's always someone who has a similar problem.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#259

Post by kps »

GhostVII wrote: post #254
gjem97 wrote: post #233

I really get frustrated at how many small appliances I end up throwing out. It just doesn't make sense to repair a food processor that breaks. This stuff that's made with a plastic housing doesn't last more than 5 years in my house. Then I look over at my Kitchenaid mixer. You know the iconic one that would look right at home in the kitchen of the 1960s. It's constructed durably, it's repairable, and people go out of…

> Why can't all appliances be like my Kitchenaid mixer? Because people don't like to spend extra for quality products. For most appliances, there are brands that sell quality versions which will last for years, but lots of people just look for the lowest priced one with the features that they want, and buy it.

Because people have been bitten by products and brands being milked, keeping higher price but not higher quality.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#260

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

jokoon wrote: post #18

Planned obsolescence is why I will never invest more than 100 euros into a phone. I will always wait to buy low-priced, fast enough for me hardware. I still remember how my macbook pro started to be slow and unusable after OSX updates. My real wish is that one day, computer or smartphone hardware might last at least 5 or even 10 years. I know software is evolving quickly, but there comes a point where I don't think y…

I'm going on 10 years with my gaming rig now. I've given it 2 video card upgrades. (It has a i7 965 Extreme, and cost a lot new, but I only paid $150 for it, and it's been amazing.) I do resent that I can't do such things with a laptop.
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