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Stop complaining and pay programmers more

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251–260 of 290 posts

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#251
When it comes to wall street bankers, there seems to be a consensus that money is the only thing that's going to bring in good talent.

When it comes to programmers, the consensus seems to be the opposite. I mean, they ought to be motivated by having a refrigerator full of Red Bull or being able to bring their dogs to work -- I mean, the Linux kernel got developed by people who work for free... Why do we need to pay people anything at all to develop applications for our intranet?

Although you'll find programmers with very different stories, I think that we'd see a healthier IT ecosystem if software people got more pay and respect (a friend of mine and myself both got offered a particular job... for him this was a big step up in pay and benefits, and for me it would have been a step down -- I've seen the compensation of programming jobs where people do comparable work vary by more than a factor of two.)

I think the "equity culture" is often part of the problem. There are startups in my town that pay $10 /hour, no benefits + equity (which might be worth something, otherwise not.) I also interviewed at a place where people were starting a new job shop; they seemed like a nice bunch of folks, they had all the trappings of "good management" (the CEO was a freshly minted MBA from an Ivy League school) but the biz plan didn't make a lot of sense to be and they were talking low base pay + some equity... This is a frickin' job shop... The kind of place where you might get $50,000 worth of equity and really be able to cash it out for $40,000 if you're insanely lucky.

That said, the interview question they asked me was the best interview question I'd ever been asked. They asked me to estimate a project they'd done for a client. I was smart enough to ask questions rather than blurt out a quick answer ...

I estimated about 160 hours for the project, and they told me it really took 200. That's not far off for a "seat of the pants" estimate, but driving home I thought... These guys probably charge $150/hr to clients; their client spend $30k for a really crappy intranet app that tortures end users... they "need" it for regulatory compliance, but there's no way that this app creates $30k worth of value.

For christsake they wasted 40 hours dealing with a deadbeat D.B.A.!

So that got me thinking about where my career was going and about software economics. For instance, if you want to get paid $150k a year, that money has to come from somewhere. Unfortunately, the shortest path to that is to get in a position where you can collect that as a rent, but assuming you're (i) the average unlucky joe, and (ii) somebody who wants to make a contribution, you need to be in a place where you're (a) creating > $150k a year in value and (b) in a position (politically) to get a good chunk of that pie.

Marx will tell you to work on (b) and that makes some sense, but I'll tell you from experience that it's a much better life to make $X for your boss and get paid $X/2 and it is to make $X for your boss and get paid $2X.

Practically, Job Shop work tends to be pretty marginal; the usual business model is to underquote work, lose money, but make it up in volume. It can be a nice biz if you've got sugar daddy customers who do stuff on a T&M basis, but otherwise job shops that look really profitable and productive today are frequently gone in a decade.

Now, you can make a lot more for your employer, potentially, if you're making a software product [or developing a SaaS-y service these days] but it's not at all unusual to put a man-decade into a product, spend $100K trying to sell it, and end up with $20K of revenue.

"Getting paid more" is therefore a matter of (a) making more value, and (b) getting a bigger piece of the pie. (a) interests me more these days -- I find it disturbing how much it costs to create business software and how bad the quality is usually is.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#252
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's silly, physicians, mechanics, lawyers, and many other skilled tradesmen are just like programmers. The problem is that many folks see programmers as somehow different than these folks.

I read a great article in the Harvard Business Review about what defines a profession. Their question: are managers a profession akin to Doctors and Lawyers? The author defined a professional as someone whose work you have to take on faith. Not being doctors or lawyers ourselves, we're usually unable to evaluate the quality of legal advice or medical care we're receiving. The best we can do is seek another opinion. T…

> Can someone check the quality of what they receive from a developer without being a developer?

That's the QA team right there. And the ones I work with are very good at it!

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#253
post #18

If you've been around yc for more than a month, you've doubtless seen a number of links to articles on motivation as it pertains to creative activities like software development. The consensus is pretty clear. Incentives hurt productivity in creative activities. This seems to have something to do with the relationship between creative effort and intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation. The prospect of an incentive seems t…

To cut through some of the BS around this: A salary that's sufficient and feels fair is essential for letting your talented coder check off that box and get on with life.

At the most basic level, if your developers aren't earning enough money to easily solve the myriad money-related problems of everyday life, those stresses will seriously affect their work. Money doesn't buy happiness, but lack of money can sure make it hard to find.

The pay also needs to be high enough that your developers don't feel worried that they're being ripped off -- that is, if they notice they you pay below the industry standard for the region, but they know their work is above average (in fact it may be way above average), they'll be forced to dedicate time to figure out if they're being taken advantage of. Not because they need the money, but because we all tend to think people who get tricked out of their money are fools, and they don't want to be seen as fools.

Once you get those two things out of the way, then you can focus on building real, non-monetary incentives for creative work -- interesting and diverse projects, sense of purpose, constant learning without forced massive leaps (good flow), allowing & encouraging mastery, etc..

It's absolutely true that just raising the money won't fix hiring problems once it's "high enough", but if you're simply paying too low, you don't have a chance.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're also offering stock of course, and it actually looks interesting :-) Plus they may not be so time sensitive: 4 programmers for 10 months vs 5 programmers for 8 months (yes I know). But if its $125k vs $150k will that $25k break the bank? Maybe. Maybe not.

The real question is will two $150k programmers produce more than three $100k programmers. In Silicon Valley, my experience is yes. The same ratio probably applies anywhere, but the relative scale changes.

Ah, but programmers don't come with these labels, do they?

And of course the $100K programmers are happy to accept an offer at $150K as well (though they won't be any more productive), in which case you've actually just chopped out a third of your productivity.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#255
post #5

You have to understand: there's more to hiring programmers than paying lots of money. If that were the case, we wouldn't have had a dot-com bust and software companies would be dominated by MBAs. That's the hard part of hiring programmers. How do you incentivize the good ones to work for you? If you have a solution to that problem, I suspect you'll be a very much in-demand person.

You make them respect you by understanding what they do and treating them like what they are: the people who create value for your business. You show actual respect for the work they do and give them interesting things to work on.

I think Fog Creek gets it right. You don't treat programmers like second-class drones who make things for you; you treat them like the primary creators of value for you company, and yourself as their support staff (abstracting away the mechanics of running a software company so all they have to think about is coding and typing commit.)

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're also offering stock of course, and it actually looks interesting :-) Plus they may not be so time sensitive: 4 programmers for 10 months vs 5 programmers for 8 months (yes I know). But if its $125k vs $150k will that $25k break the bank? Maybe. Maybe not.

I used to recruit and hire people and have been working with early stage companies for over a decade. The two companies I've worked with who tried this sort of hiring scheme blew through all their cash within 18 months, and they had a lot more money to burn.

I worked at a company that paid us fuck-all and still managed to burn thru $300 million. Are you in a position to tell us that the companies you worked with blew their cash on salaries, or are you just drawing making two causally unrelated statements in the same sentence?

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real question is will two $150k programmers produce more than three $100k programmers. In Silicon Valley, my experience is yes. The same ratio probably applies anywhere, but the relative scale changes.

Ah, but programmers don't come with these labels, do they? And of course the $100K programmers are happy to accept an offer at $150K as well (though they won't be any more productive), in which case you've actually just chopped out a third of your productivity.

Why would you offer the $100K programmers $150K?

Ah, you are saying that because programmers don't come with labels, you are unable to tell the two apart. I would suggest that you don't be involved in recruiting then.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#258

Having tried this approach I can tell you that offering more money results in perhaps a doubling of the number of barely competent programmers, a ten-fold increase in the number of completely clueless, and no apparent increase in the number of people we'd actually want. My results are not statistically valid, I've only gone through the hiring cycle five times, but my impression from actually trying it is that salary…

2ND VIDEO: 4m50s:

"IF YOU DONT PAY PEOPLE ENOUGH, PEOPLE WONT BE MOTIVATED."

"THE BEST USE OF MONEY IS TO PAY PEOPLE ENOUGH TO TAKE THE ISSUE OF MONEY OFF THE TABLE".

"ONCE YOU DO THAT THERE ARE THREE FACTORS THAT LEAD TO BETTER PERFORMANCE..."

Once you do that. Clear? Once you pay people enough to take the issue of money off the table. This is your link dammit.

For me, with a wife, two kids, and a car racing habit, that "enough" is a lot higher than it is for a 20yo student. Its about $130k in fact.

As for your results, as you say: "not statistically valid". That actually means something.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#259
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it piqued your interest.

Is there a name for that phenomenon, where people hear terms in use but map them to the wrong words? Or the opposite, where people learn words through reading but mispronounce them?

There are a few mild forms of dyxleia that cover thoses symptoms. For example, I cannot "sound out" words. I have to hear them before I say them. Makes for some funny times, thank god I have a great memory, or I'd look stupid all the time

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Incentives hurt productivity in creative activities." Unadulterated nonsense. On the one hand, I recall a cartoon-drawing presentation about school contests and the like. On the other hand, there are these centuries and centuries of evidence that PEOPLE RESPOND TO INCENTIVES, PERIOD. If you think that a company couldn't assemble a team of OUTSTANDING programmers by offering each $200k a year, you're crazy or stupid…

As a meta point the guidelines here request we use italics for emphasis rather than caps (you can do italics by putting a * either side of a section). (I just noticed you were a new commentor so I hope that comes across ok :))

Thank you. Sorry about that.
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