Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment • Hacker News Board

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#251

Post by smmsnsks » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 1:43 AM UTC

gizmo wrote: post #232

smmsnsks wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in the same position as you. I constantly and graphically think about sex with my female colleagues. However it has actually helped my career because I don't interrupt my female colleagues at the whiteboard or in meetings, rather I nod and affirm them while I fantasize about sex with them. As an ironic consequence I have gotten a reputation for being respectful of women's ideas and encouraging of their career de…

That's awful. Stop it.

I can't really stop, but a valuable question is, should I? The women who have worked with me have succeeded and been promoted to successful managerial roles more than those who have worked for my other male colleagues. Who would be served by an attempt to change my thoughts?

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#252

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 1:43 AM UTC

haikuginger wrote: post #224

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it . These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desireable. They think that this is how the game is played, and these things are a form of peacocking. They th…

> Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it. These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desireable. At a certain point, one has to believe that another's actions are evil, even if that evil is unwitting. One mustn't actively choose to be "evil and predatory" to be so in fact.

At a certain point, one has to believe that another's actions are evil, even if that evil is unwitting. One mustn't actively choose to be "evil and predatory" to be so in fact.

So something can become so horrible, that even a mistaken action should be defined as evil? Sorry, but that sounds wrong, and itself willfully vengeful. In that case, shouldn't we just do away with manslaughter and just say everyone who has killed someone is a murderer?

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#253

Post by stale2002 » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 1:43 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #216

For everyone who is wondering why these people act the way they do, the answer is that their actions work some of the time . Otherwise, why would they do it if they continually strike out? What one person might see as harassment, another might see as an exciting "chase". I've known women who have had guys be very aggressive (it's a fine line) and they were quite taken by it. This of course is not excusing the behavio…

True. Pickup artists are pickup artists for a reason.

It turns out that some people really are susceptible to manipulation.

It wouldn't be called manipulation if it didn't work.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#254

Post by bobdole1234 » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 1:43 AM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #168

dkarl wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think cringe is the wrong word. We cringe when we watch The Office and see people make social mistakes without meaning to. These are not unwitting social mistakes. This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it. Furthermore, not having met any of these people but speculating based on my experience, I would guess that their motivations go beyond just looking for sex and knowing that one ti…

I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it . These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desireable. They think that this is how the game is played, and these things are a form of peacocking. They th…

I think you're completely neglecting the fact that there is a large contingent of women that this behavior WORKS LIKE CATNIP ON.

There is a reason why a huge amount of porn in the world (and porn made for women) about boss / secretary, teacher / student, rich person / poor person, mentor / underling power imbalances: it's a major part of our sexuality as social animals.

So, these men have often gone through life being wildly successful with this type of behavior up until society started to change around them.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#255

Post by sokoloff » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 1:43 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #93

Mz wrote: post #41

Saying anything, the women were warned, might lead to ostracism. The problem is that women are already being ostracized. When you can't get hired or you can't get VC money or you can't get business connections because the only time men will talk to you is to hit on you, you are already basically dead in the water as a business person. How do we get out of this dead end?

> How do we get out of this dead end? It's a chicken and egg problem. The biggest systemic factor is the absurd gender ratio, but if the consequences of that are self-reinforcing then the status quo remains. Many people have the instinct to turn to anti-harassment policies and enforcement, but that's like trying to fight cancer with aspirin. It might help a little bit but it's no cure no matter how much you use, and…

> But "we need more women in tech" is just the problem statement. Nobody seems to actually know how to get there from here.

My wife and I are starting in our own tiny corner by volunteer teaching small age-appropriate and (hopefully) interesting topics in math, science, and engineering in K5, first, second, and third grade (as our kids go through those ages).

The first seeds of the gender disparity in tech are sown in pre-teen years, IMO. There are also some significant selection effects later on, but I think those are smaller in magnitude than the original "Daddy, what can I be when I grow up?" programming.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#256

Post by lawnchair_larry » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 1:45 AM UTC

rhcom2 wrote: post #213

tuna-piano wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to elaborate on point #4. I chose those examples purposefully: Those three are all well-known business leaders who have dated or married their subordinates. Presumably, there was a point where Gates/Brin/Knight initiated or suggested to initiate romantic involvement. If as it turns out the woman had not been interested, in retrospect, would the methods of initiation seem like sexual harassment? I believe…

If the women isn't interested, you stop. Seems like many men have a problem with rejection and accepting no, that's usually when it becomes creepy. Had Gates asked his now SO out and she said no and then he politely went on his way like a respectful human being I really doubt anyone would cry sexual harassment.

Haha. You'll want to read the story of what he actually did before making this assumption. If the names were redacted from the Bill and Melinda story, everyone here would be calling for his head.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#257

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 1:46 AM UTC

mintplant wrote: post #222

rl3 wrote: post #7

This entire article is a smorgasbord of cringe: > During the recruiting process, Mr. McClure, a founder of 500 Startups and an investor, sent her a Facebook message that read in part, “I was getting confused figuring out whether to hire you or hit on you.” One would think having the phrases "hire you" and "hit on you" in the same sentence when communicating with someone undergoing recruitment at your company would be…

Huh. Who would've thought that allowing wealthy frat bro types* to run amok, wield power over others, and construct cults of personality would engender a culture of sexism and abuse? (* I'm not, of course, attempting to excuse any who may not fit this profile.)

Huh. Who would've thought that allowing wealthy frat bro types to run amok, wield power over others, and construct cults of personality would engender a culture of sexism and abuse?*

Power is a dangerous thing. This is why we must also be careful of the power in evidence-free accusations and abrogation of "innocent until guilty." Not saying that is necessarily happening here. However, such urging to "listen and believe" comes up when these topics are discussed. Women are no less corruptible by unchecked power than men.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#258

Post by sokoloff » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 1:49 AM UTC

gizmo wrote: post #226

smmsnsks wrote: post #193

Avoiding this situation is why I never meet women 1:1 outside of conference rooms, yet Mike Pence was roundly mocked for doing this.

Regardless of intent, this contributes to the problem. A lot of mentoring and networking happens on a 1:1 basis, and if men refuse to meet women 1:1 in situations where they would meet with other men, then women will lose out on career opportunities.

This. In taking a new role several years ago, I had selected a woman to be part of my new leadership team. I was counseled by a peer (of sorts) to never take a closed-door 1:1 meeting with her; that it was simply too risky.

How the hell am I supposed to run a department without ever having a closed-door 1:1 meeting with 1/4 of my leadership team? I ignored the warning and things of course played out just fine, but it did give me some pause that people would think that simply having a meeting would be too risky to consider.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#259

Post by Mtinie » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 1:49 AM UTC

jimmywanger wrote: post #204

xenadu02 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I expect less VCs to take meetings with women, sadly. Why? There's a really simple procedure that can solve these problems: Don't hit on, feel-up, or try to have sex with people you're in a professional business relationship with . That goes double for people you hold power over (managers to employees, VCs to Founders, etc). If you're really truly worried about false accusations then here's another fix you can have…

> I expect less VCs to take meetings with women, sadly. Why? There's a really simple procedure that can solve these problems: Don't hit on, feel-up, or try to have sex with people you're in a professional business relationship with. That goes double for people you hold power over (managers to employees, VCs to Founders, etc). If you're really truly worried about false accusations then here's another fix you can have…

The previous comment didn't allude to illegal recording of conversations without consent. The suggestion was to ensure there was a record of all interactions.

If I'm a VC and I've scheduled a meeting at my office it is as simple as letting the party I'm meeting with know that I had planned on recording for my archives.

Nothing unusual or sketchy about the request, especially in a business setting.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#260

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 1:50 AM UTC

nickpsecurity wrote: post #152

rokhayakebe wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do we get out of this dead end? Have women as your first few customers. Sell to Women initially. Only pitch to women VCs etc... When you get beyond a certain point hire men to deal with men you don't want to deal with.

You're basically describing affirmative action or quotas. They worked successfully in the Nordic countries to improve the gender ratios over there. The Navy did it with great success. Many companies do it including First Horizon that's near me which tries to stay half and half. This can work but essentially you have to either make it law or convince the VC's to do it willingly. Those are big political problems that w…

The problem with quotas is that it isn't that kind of problem.

It isn't predominantly that qualified women are applying and being turned away because of gender discrimination, it's that industry-wide the number of qualified women necessary for an even gender balance do not exist.

They went to school for teaching or medicine or real estate and the 17 year old girls deciding which college program to apply to are still doing the same thing.