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Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

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Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#251

Post by flukus »

graphememes wrote: post #244

Controversial opinion here... Why are the vocal hacker news commenters against segregated groups? For instance, what would be the issue with places that have selective hiring for individuals that meet their cultural composition and why does that bother you specifically? Isn't that the case in every location? In this case, there was harassment, however generally it is understood that "birds of a feather flock together…

HN seems to be in favor of segregated groups.

A few years ago I would have said that companies should be apolitical and that they should hire the best people available and have everyone act somewhat professionally.

But now it seems everyone wants companies to be political, liberals want companies to be pro gay marriage, christians want companies to be against it. When companies didn't have to pick sides a liberal and christian could work at the same company, but no it seems we're creating more and more segregated groups.

Then to make matters even worse we have social media policies that prevent you from voicing any opinion not shared by your corporate overlord.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#252

Post by solidsnack9000 »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #157
opportune wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the firing should have been done as the issues were discovered / brought to light. Waiting to fire perpetrators until after a critical mass of media scrutiny forces you to do so only reveals uber's true motives. Clearly they don't give a shit about actual sexual harrassment, they just want to preserve whatever perceived image they have to the rest of the world (not that an anti-competitive contrac…

> Clearly they don't give a shit about actual sexual harrassment, they just want to preserve whatever perceived image they have to the rest of the world You may be right. But I don't think policing peoples intentions is a good plan for us. It has all kinds of problems, the main one being intentions are generally pretty unknowable. The other one being intentions don't actually cause any harm, so by policing intentions…

There is no "policing" of intentions here -- just considering them. We should be careful of those who behave well, merely in response to punishment or in avoidance of it.

The relationship between intentions and actions is rarely so distant as in the example you give -- "I would rather you be a harmless person with horrible intentions than a harmful person with good intentions.". Indeed, I don't know how we would recognize the notion of intention -- thought preceding action -- if they had so little relationship to action.

The importance of intention is nowhere clearer than in the law, where to "knowingly and wittingly" body slam another person is handled quite differently from tripping and falling into them, or slamming into them to push them out of the way of a car and yet inadvertently pushing them into a wall.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#253

Post by Trundle »

magnetic wrote: post #250
graphememes wrote: post #244

Controversial opinion here... Why are the vocal hacker news commenters against segregated groups? For instance, what would be the issue with places that have selective hiring for individuals that meet their cultural composition and why does that bother you specifically? Isn't that the case in every location? In this case, there was harassment, however generally it is understood that "birds of a feather flock together…

> I am genuinely curious about this as it seems to be a rising trend where the vocal minority want to enforce their idea of culture and beliefs onto others as if it were a religious or cult like movement that I have seen before in Christian groups. It seems to me that in this particular case, it's not a matter of "enforcing their idea of culture and beliefs onto others", but just enforcing the law .

People don't tend to want the law enforced just because it's the law. There are all sorts of weird laws still on the books in some places yet no ones getting outraged that people are fishing without a hat on or whatever.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#254

Post by Johnny555 »

flukus wrote: post #251
graphememes wrote: post #244

Controversial opinion here... Why are the vocal hacker news commenters against segregated groups? For instance, what would be the issue with places that have selective hiring for individuals that meet their cultural composition and why does that bother you specifically? Isn't that the case in every location? In this case, there was harassment, however generally it is understood that "birds of a feather flock together…

HN seems to be in favor of segregated groups. A few years ago I would have said that companies should be apolitical and that they should hire the best people available and have everyone act somewhat professionally. But now it seems everyone wants companies to be political, liberals want companies to be pro gay marriage, christians want companies to be against it. When companies didn't have to pick sides a liberal and…

I don't think most liberals want companies to be "pro gay marriage", they want companies to take no stance on gay marriage at all and just treat it as "marriage".

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#255

Post by potatolicious »

s73ver wrote: post #246
potatolicious wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Probably a better idea to work on a solid recruiting process that can shake out practitioners of bad behavior from the candidate pool." I agree in principle - but how do you suggest this be done? It's not as if harassers are going to cop to it in an interview. I: "Have you sexually harassed your colleagues at previous jobs?" C: "Oh yeah, sure, yep, I'll show myself out now." Nor are companies permitted to answer w…

Not being someone who harasses others at work, I don't know if this would work. But if your company had a reputation of taking that kind of thing seriously, wouldn't it mean that those bad actors would be less likely to apply at your company?

Yes, I think it would - but most companies are small and do not have known cultural reputations, so this kind of strategy likely will only be useful to larger/name-brand companies.

IMO the lack of this reputation harms startups - some larger companies have been known to take harassment and abuse more seriously than others, and they've attracted a greater share of marginalized demographics. This is great for employees - they have greater safety at work - but bad for the ecosystem, as this is an entire talent pool that startups - who comparatively have little reputation - are missing out on.

The other poster also brings up a good point: not all bad actors know they are bad. Generally speaking everyone is the Good Guy in their own head. That said, there are certainly many bad actors who are aware of how their actions are received and will seek easier environs.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#256

Post by sebastos »

graphememes wrote: post #243
sebastos wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have at least some sympathy with the point you're trying to make here. I think you are essentially saying that we've all gone a bit soft, and that the modern workplace is full of a bunch of crybabies that can't solve any problem on their own without escalating it to HR. And this problem becomes particularly egregious when that escalation turns into a dark mark on that person's "permanent record", as it tends to do…

> They don't consider other people's ideas, or they're just generally rude - whatever it is. Just generally hard to work with. Now try to think about somebody who makes inappropriate propositions to women in the workplace: this is just another brand of the same problem. If you can't get along with some of your fellow female coworkers because they don't feel comfortable with you, then you're not a good team player. I…

But to play devil's advocate, replace "for simply not being able to interact socially with others" with "for simply not being able to adhere to a schedule" or "for simply not being able to keep up personal hygiene" or "for simply not being able to understand their boss's tasking". There are a million social standards to which we hold the average employee, and they all add up to an effective coworker.

In a world with men and women in the same workspace, being able to interact comfortably with the opposite sex is not just a life skill. It's part of your job description. So I'm not offended by companies that demand high "performance" in this regard.

With all that said, I 100% agree that the increasing frequency of "trial by twitter mob" is an unacceptable development. If somebody got fired for poor job performance, you wouldn't raise a twitter storm shaming that company for having made a poor hiring decision, nor would you plaster that person's mugshot everywhere to warn others of making the same mistake. You would just say "sorry, it's not working out" and send them on their way. So in that regard I think we are actually in complete agreement - making a mistake shouldn't make you a pariah. But I'm fine if it makes you fired.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#257

Post by vkou »

noway421 wrote: post #230
vkou wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can have a run rate of infinity dollars, if my business model consists of selling $20 bills for $19. What's their revenue minus costs of revenue?

is that any different from profit?

It is. If they made 20 billion dollars, and then spent 21 billion dollars, and 2 billion of the latter was a big pile of money that they set on fire, it shouldn't count as a cost of revenue.

If, on the other hand, the spent all 21 billion dollars on paying drivers, driver promotions, marketing, flash sales, and coupons... It most certainly should.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#258

Post by kbart »

zorpner wrote: post #197
mlindner wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What company is that so I know to avoid it? Sounds like you should get out of there.

Nah. I like working somewhere where ethics are taken seriously. If you've been working for Uber for the last couple years (in an engineering role, and not visa-restricted), you need to have an answer for why you've remained someplace with so many serious ethical issues. And to be clear, "I needed to pay bills" is a real answer. But you need to have it and be willing to say it and defend it.

"I like working somewhere where ethics are taken seriously."

Objecting people just because they've worked for a company-turned-toxic without getting into details seems damn unethical to me. That's no better than racial or other profiling ("they all are like this" mentality) imho.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#259

Post by justin_vanw »

jsedgwick wrote: post #106
MockObject wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have no way of independently verifying your claim.

Welcome to the internet. You won't like it.

I wish there was some kind of 'best of HN' where this comment could live on forever.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#260

Post by HelloNurse »

dllthomas wrote: post #233
int_19h wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crucial part here is the nature of the reputation. We're not talking about some shady dealings of the upper management, that individual employees may or may not have been aware of. We're talking about employee culture inside the company - something that is, by definition, exposed to and shaped by employees. Given the magnitude of the problem in Uber, on the basis of reports we've seen so far, on the balance of pr…

Uber is big and the culture in any given pocket varies quite a bit. It's entirely possible not to have known what was going on 200 employees over.

Are you claiming that good teams with a good culture actually exist at Uber? What's your evidence?
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