Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

CEOs Want Their Offices Back

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 409 posts

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#251

Post by piinbinary »

rajeshp1986 wrote: post #244
khazhoux wrote: post #227

We have an open floor plan, and it works like this: * Desk area is for getting work done. Everyone agrees on this. * We have "phone rooms" for small discussions. But we limit those usually to 1:1s or discussing office politics. * Try to limit all discussions at the desk area to 5 people or less. * If someone sighs loudly as they put on their headphones when you're having a discussion right behind them, then that is t…

All the items in this list are assumptions. I don't think it makes any sense to make them as rules.

Poe's Law?

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#252

Post by neom »

As a CEO I mostly don't work from the same space as the rest of the team as my work tends to be multi-person meetings and phone calls. We mostly share our meals together, however.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#253

Post by rajeshp1986 »

I think this whole collaborative workspace bullshit was oversold and overbrought. The only thing it does serve is the ego of an insecured management who doesn't trust its employees that they are working in closed spaces. That is the reason they want open office spaces and support Agile.

I fail to understand why do you need your team to sit next to each other when you have modern day collaboration tools like Slack, hipchat etc. The management folks who argue that open office increases collaboration fail to understand that engineers don't collaborate whole day long. They collaborate for an hour or so and then they need to focus and build things. The ideal ratio would be 80:20. An engineer wants 80% productivity and 20% collaboration. By this it makes sense to have a closed office spaces and have collboration areas around the office. Having an open office and few personal areas scattered around the office promotes 80% collaboration and 20% productivity. As an organization are you really aiming for that?

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#254

Post by acdha »

j2bax wrote: post #238
ashark wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely part of it. Businesses are afraid developers will come to regard themselves, and to be regarded, as real professionals, like doctors, lawyers, some categories of engineer (god forbid they stop cowering around the MBAs or start questioning the ethics of... well, anything, really!) Systemically keeping their tastes and station "lower" than that is probably part of what's going on, especially with the bigger…

Cry me a river. I know a lot of nurses and teachers that feel really bad for the poor software engineer class.

Who does that attitude benefit? (Hint: not anyone who has to work for a living)

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#255

Post by varelse »

noarchy wrote: post #222
abritinthebay wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because it works. There's a reason it's popular. That said: a lot of places don't do it correctly and really do deserve being called cargo cults. Still, some process is better than no process.

>That's because it works. There's a reason it's popular. Versus: >That said: a lot of places don't do it correctly and really do deserve being called cargo cults. That's how it always goes, right? Company after company implements some kind of Scrum process, and when it doesn't work the problem is never Scrum itself. I'd contend that the reason things like Scrum are popular is that it gives non-technical managers thin…

To be fair (and probably downvoted), _The Agile Manifesto_ is a great read IMO. None of its 12 principles mandate open floor plans, scrum or daily standups.

https://www.smartsheet.com/comprehensive-guide-values-princi...

Combine these with Joel Spolsky's 12 steps to better code and I'd call that a winning culture.

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/08/09/the-joel-test-12-s...

But that's never how it turns out so "you're doing it wrong" is (and I hate to admit this) a valid objection. Sigh...

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#256

Post by dasmoth »

atemerev wrote: post #70
jpalomaki wrote: post #62

Theory: open space fosters communication, because you can easily engage in discussion with others. Reality: everybody is sitting with their headphones on. The only way to get their attention is via Slack or by throwing objects at them.

In the academia, where good communication and idea sharing are essential, there are no open offices. Said communication happens where it ought to be: in rec room or cafeteria.

In the academia, where good communication and idea sharing are essential, there are no open offices.

Becoming less true by the day, I'm afraid.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#257

Post by baursak »

khazhoux wrote: post #227

We have an open floor plan, and it works like this: * Desk area is for getting work done. Everyone agrees on this. * We have "phone rooms" for small discussions. But we limit those usually to 1:1s or discussing office politics. * Try to limit all discussions at the desk area to 5 people or less. * If someone sighs loudly as they put on their headphones when you're having a discussion right behind them, then that is t…

Forgot one more item:

CEO has the same desk as everybody else. But we also know to never book a certain conference room where he hangs out all day.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#258

Post by x0x0 »

varelse wrote: post #51
coffeeski wrote: post #8

Why do CEO's think they're alone in the need for quiet spaces where they can focus? Sure some people can work in the noisy space where interruptions abound. The only thing in my office that works well with interruptions is my CPU. I'd rather have a Cube farm, but better yet, a small tiny phone booth as an office.

Just like the cargo cult Agile pandemic peaked a few years ago, I suspect we're reaching peak open floor plans right now. The overall negative effects of an open floor plan for a significant fraction of engineers (though not all) is self-evident and backed up by reams of data stretching back nearly 40 years: http://iansommerville.com/software-engineering-book/web/work... TLDR: 100 square feet of personal space is opt…

It's not a cargo cult -- cargo cults are done as pure imitation.

Open floor plans are simply a cost saving measure combined with a way to enforce the internal hierarchy.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#259

Post by peapicker »

draw_down wrote: post #246
khazhoux wrote: post #227

We have an open floor plan, and it works like this: * Desk area is for getting work done. Everyone agrees on this. * We have "phone rooms" for small discussions. But we limit those usually to 1:1s or discussing office politics. * Try to limit all discussions at the desk area to 5 people or less. * If someone sighs loudly as they put on their headphones when you're having a discussion right behind them, then that is t…

Noise canceling headphones don't really work that way in my experience. They're good at canceling out droning background sounds to make the overall sound quieter, but they can't "predict" and cancel out less repetitive/droning sounds sounds like conversations and those godawful clacky keyboards some people insist on. In effect, noise canceling headphones make those sounds louder , relatively speaking, because they qu…

Every single item on the list is said tongue-in-cheek...

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#260

Post by noarchy »

varelse wrote: post #255
noarchy wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's because it works. There's a reason it's popular. Versus: >That said: a lot of places don't do it correctly and really do deserve being called cargo cults. That's how it always goes, right? Company after company implements some kind of Scrum process, and when it doesn't work the problem is never Scrum itself. I'd contend that the reason things like Scrum are popular is that it gives non-technical managers thin…

To be fair (and probably downvoted), _The Agile Manifesto_ is a great read IMO. None of its 12 principles mandate open floor plans, scrum or daily standups. https://www.smartsheet.com/comprehensive-guide-values-princi... Combine these with Joel Spolsky's 12 steps to better code and I'd call that a winning culture. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/08/09/the-joel-test-12-s... But that's never how it turns out so "yo…

I actually agree that the Agile Manifesto is a good read. That's why I tend to use air quotes when discussing "Agile" at any shop, because I think it rarely resembles anything in the Manifesto. But I'm not sure one can sell certification courses as easily based on the elegant-yet-simple principles outlined in the Manifesto.
Post reply on HN