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Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

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Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#251

Post by jinzo »

bigtimeidiot wrote: post #236
bartl wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Let's say someone does modify the code. Let's not. These farmers don't want to change the software . They only want to fix their hardware. And because of the close tightness with the software, they can't.

Do you think I can pull the electric motor from my Model S to replace it? When John Deere does this, HN is up in arms. When Tesla does it, it's part of an "innovative business model".

As someone in the car repair industry I can assure you that Teslas hostility regarding non-authorised-repair is a big issue and will only blow up when Teslas become more common. At least here in Europe, this won't fly.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#252

Post by callmeal »

bigtimeidiot wrote: post #242
jdietrich wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't try to bullshit us. Your code is deliberately user-hostile. Farmers aren't trying to hack their tractors for the sake of it; they need to hack the parts of your code that prevent them from performing routine maintenance. Replacing a fuel pump is not going to turn a tractor into a rampaging death machine. You are using spurious safety arguments to justify profiteering. Software lock-outs are being used to prop u…

> Don't try to bullshit us. Us ? Who is "us"? Why are you trying to shout down an opposing view? You want prefer the echo chamber? > Replacing a fuel pump is not going to turn a tractor into a rampaging death machine. Am I going to be able to replace whatever parts I want on my Model 3? Because "we" certainly love that company here!

Yes - you can change the windshield wipers, replace the fluid, change the tires. You may not be able to replace the battery or any of the high voltage electrical system yet. Although if you are experienced in high-voltage maintenance, you may be able too. See this[1] description of one fix that your "software" would prevent.

[1] http://imgur.com/gallery/j8Bcp

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#253

Post by DanielBMarkham »

ehsankia wrote: post #203
hristov wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow the public relations sock-puppetry on HN is getting very clever and sophisticated. I really love the green account - nice touch. It really helps your authenticity to pretend like you are afraid of retribution from John Deere when you are totally kissing their asses. Let me ask you this -- why in the world do the lines of software you write prevent a qualified mechanic from changing a transmission? You know people…

Not on either side here, but I feel like you're missing the point there. Let's say someone does modify the code, then the machine messes up and ends up killing someone. Who would be the culprit there? I guess they could have something that detects when the software is modified, but even if they did, I bet it would still be poor publicity for them (similar to when people misuse Tesla's assist and getting in accidents)…

Both the OP and the reply seem a bit over-the-top, but it's a fair call to say that the goal was changing the subject from "who owns the tractor" to "think of the children!"

People repair stuff they own all the time, and if they do a bad job of it, they are liable for any damages caused. All that's really needed here is some clear way to indicate that this factory-issued X has been modified by the owner to be an X1 model. End of story.

We can't continue down this path of people developing software and somehow in the process picking up vast quantities of physical goods that buyers think they actually own. Not only is it evil, it's nonsensical from the viewpoint of the average informed person. The only reason it's worked as long as it has is that most people aren't informed enough about it. Tractors might be the straw that breaks the camel's back on this issue. People don't think much about the inner workings of their phones, but Joe Farmer fixing his tractor is a concept most folks don't have difficulty getting their head around.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#255

Post by criddell »

keyme wrote: post #221
pjc50 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.. to get sued for patent infringement. Or DMCA violation.

This is interoperability. At the very least this is a gray area.

This seems exactly like the type of situation for which the Librarian of Congress would carve out a DMCA exemption.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#256

Post by cjrp »

kodfodrasz wrote: post #184
plinkplonk wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But trust me on this,... isn't a way to make a good argument. From TFA "Only dealerships have the software to make those parts work, and it costs hundreds of dollars just to get a service call. Schwarting worries about being broken down in a field, waiting for a dealer to show up with a software key." and from a comment above "Plus, many of them don't get any update after the product launch. When you are in rush to…

This may be related to farmers not taking the tractors to repair shops. The automotive component I worked on was firmware updated every time the customer took the car to a service for eg. to change oil, and an update was necessary. The tools needed for this were pretty expensive though, and needed some expertise, as the process was somewhat complicated. I understand why this is not trusted to owners.

If the lack of updates inconveniences their customers and potentially causes loss of earnings, isn't the onus on JD to improve the update mechanism? Make it as simple as inserting a USB stick, and then ship out those sticks periodically? It doesn't have to be OTA or anything fancy.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#257

Post by yazbo_mcclure »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #253
ehsankia wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not on either side here, but I feel like you're missing the point there. Let's say someone does modify the code, then the machine messes up and ends up killing someone. Who would be the culprit there? I guess they could have something that detects when the software is modified, but even if they did, I bet it would still be poor publicity for them (similar to when people misuse Tesla's assist and getting in accidents)…

Both the OP and the reply seem a bit over-the-top, but it's a fair call to say that the goal was changing the subject from "who owns the tractor" to "think of the children!" People repair stuff they own all the time, and if they do a bad job of it, they are liable for any damages caused. All that's really needed here is some clear way to indicate that this factory-issued X has been modified by the owner to be an X1 m…

You nailed it Dan

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#258

Post by rebeccaskinner »

swampthinker wrote: post #99
Sytten wrote: post #85

My dad is a farmer and I can assure you that this is a real problem. Every piece of equipment now as its own proprietary, closed-source and, most of the time, incompatible software. Plus, many of them don't get any update after the product launch. When you are in rush to plant or harvest you just can`t afford to wait for an authorized dealer. And if they fail, good luck trying to find a replacement that is not 100x o…

Sounds like an opportunity...

I co-founded a company in this space a few years ago. We ultimately pivoted out of the space because for all of the user buy-in that we got, the legal encumbrances were way too high to be able to successfully operate without raising a lot of money just to pay lawyers. If we'd decided to go the VC route instead of bootstrapping we might have been able to make a go of it, but raising VC money for a startup in the midwest working on something as mundane as farming was looking pretty untenable.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#259

Post by tobltobs »

throwaway_jddev wrote: post #139
femto wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> John Deere tractors run on open source software Out of curiosity, what range of open source licenses appear in the code base? Do they use any software whose license requires source distribution? If so, are you aware of a "source code" page buried in John Deere's website, or some other mechanism by which they satisfy any distribution clauses?

I couldn't possibly comment. This would be close to me breaking NDA ground here, so sorry about that. I know that the legal department took software licensing very seriously and we had a narrow range of licenses we could use.

Instead of now even hiding behind some lame excuses like NDAs, how about answering the most asked question:

How does replacing hardware parts does risk lives? Why is the situation different for JD than for eg. car manufacturers?

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#260

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

plinkplonk wrote: post #174
throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

>But trust me on this,... isn't a way to make a good argument. From TFA "Only dealerships have the software to make those parts work, and it costs hundreds of dollars just to get a service call. Schwarting worries about being broken down in a field, waiting for a dealer to show up with a software key." and from a comment above "Plus, many of them don't get any update after the product launch. When you are in rush to…

I can guarantee you that all of these tractors will have the POSSIBILITY of over-the-air telemetry and software updates within a few years. The question still comes down to paying the support fees and getting the updates or modifications, but the physical act of "waiting for a tech" for software will be a non-issue very shortly, if not already.

Can someone speak definitively about updates from JD? It would really surprise me that JD "doesn't update" their software after the sale. It's probably covered by a service contract you need to keep paying for, but I strongly suspect that they update and patch software for many, many years after the product release.

Source: I work for a certain, huge diesel manufacturer, and am starting at a slide about telematics right this very moment.

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