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To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

latimes.com

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Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#251

Post by jessriedel »

spollo wrote: post #159
jessriedel wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any data to back up that theory? The alternative theory that busses are undependable and low-status is more plausible to me.

Any data to back up that theory? The alternative theory that rail drives neighbourhood growth and has better long-term political safety is more plausible to me. Not that I disagree but it's no less backed up than the theory you support.

Yes of course. Sometimes people ask for data because they would generally like to learn, not as a tactic to win an argument.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#252

Post by Tiktaalik »

ahh wrote: post #232

Before we ask about methods...has any American city ever fixed a traffic problem? No, I'm serious: has any city in the US ever had traffic at some (bad) level, implemented some set of new policies, then had traffic drop substantially while maintaining the same population density (i.e. I won't count the abandonment of Detroit.) I certainly don't know of any, which makes me doubtful about anyone 's proposals to fix tra…

Vancouver, BC a "North" American city has had the same traffic volumes entering/exiting its downtown core since the 1960s even though the amount of jobs and people living in the area has massively increased during that time.

This was accomplished by: 1. Never building a freeway and never expanding any road capacity at all. (This is a strong disincentive to drive to downtown) 2. Building rapid transit. 3. Building residential housing in and adjacent to downtown so that people can just walk to work.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#253

Post by OliverJones »

Are there any behavioral economists on here?

Isn't there a well-proven positive (meaning unstable) feedback loop between the increased supply of roads and the demand for them? Is there any way to introduce an effective negative (stabilizing) feedback loop into the system? Congestion pricing is an attempt to do that.

How about introducing some kind of net metering into the system? Not only could people who use the road at peak times be charged a toll, but people who travel off-peak could get a credit. It should be possible for somebody who has an off-peak commute to actually earn a bit of money.

Yes, I'm proposing the transponder-age version of the toll-booth person handing money to the driver.

With respect to Mr. Musk, his tunnelling proposal is nuts: on many things he's good, not this. We did some tunnels in Boston in the 1990s and early 2000s. Caissons! Flooding! Cooling systems to freeze the mud so the buildings near the project don't fall down! Ventilation systems! Rats flushed out by the tunneling projects! Buried utility lines! In LA, several layers of underground storm drains! Cost overruns!

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#254

Post by Symbiote »

martinald wrote: post #167
nradov wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buses in the LA region have a bad reputation because of other bus passengers. If you ride the bus you might have to sit next to someone who smells bad or plays loud music or acts out in inappropriate ways. That's why everyone who can afford it drives their own car: to be alone. The reputation would improve if they could get more "regular" people riding, but it's kind of a chicken-or-the-egg problem.

Have you seen the central line at rush hour in London? It's horrendous[1]. We are talking >7people per sqm, plus significant waits to even get on the trains. But yet, 100k+s use it every day of all socioeconomic backgrounds. I'd imagine mostly middle class/upper middle class professionals. Why? 1) Traffic is terrible. It will take 1hr+ to do a journey the central line does in 15-20m. 2) Even if you want to drive, par…

London hasn't adequately priced the externalities of traffic congestion. Air quality is still rather poor by European standards! The more recent changes are well overdue, but still don't go far enough.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#256

Post by m-j-fox »

ahh wrote: post #232

Before we ask about methods...has any American city ever fixed a traffic problem? No, I'm serious: has any city in the US ever had traffic at some (bad) level, implemented some set of new policies, then had traffic drop substantially while maintaining the same population density (i.e. I won't count the abandonment of Detroit.) I certainly don't know of any, which makes me doubtful about anyone 's proposals to fix tra…

NYC supposedly fixed some of their problems in the 50s if you believe Jane Jacobs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_and_Life_of_Great_Am...

She teaches that the key to getting rid of traffic is getting rid of roads. Not everyone buys this theory, but in LA's case, why not try dynamiting the freeways and let's just see if things get better? It's not like they can get any worse.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#257

Post by amyjess »

chadgeidel wrote: post #166
l1ambda wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what is done in Minnesota. Pricing is dynamically adjusted every 3 minutes to keep traffic flowing at a minimum of 45mph (in practice more like 60+mph). When there is more traffic, the toll is priced higher. Electronic sensors monitor the traffic density and tolls are changed every three minutes. The best part is, it works!

Wow, I hadn't heard of this! Very interesting. Trying to find more info about this but not finding it on Minnesota DOT (the MnPASS site doesn't have results data) or other sites. Can you share a link?

The express toll ("Texpress") lanes on I-635 in Dallas do something similar:

http://www.lbjtexpress.com/pricing/how-pricing-is-determined

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#258

Post by Balgair »

revelation wrote: post #170
bit_logic wrote: post #109

The true solution to LA traffic will never happen. And that solution is buses. But not the current underfunded system that barely limps along. A massive number of buses, like 5x the current number. And combined with tolls for cars to get cars off the road. The large number of buses is critical because it greatly reduces wait time between transfers. It also allows adding express bus lines between major areas. But buse…

Buses are the worst form of public transport due to low capacity, low efficiency and large exposure to delays from individual transport (no personal car can hold up rail) with the resulting scheduling issues and low customer satisfaction. Light rail blows buses away.

Until some bum sits on the rails lines just on the other side of where it crosses the surface road throwing god-knows-what about at 4:30pm as they have taken to recently at the Bundy crossing. This causes massive gridlock and has made the westside much worse in terms of traffic since the light-rail went in.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#259

Post by timthelion »

xienze wrote: post #249
timthelion wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any experience with busses? Was that experience "great"? For example, have you lived in Hong Kong, which I understand is a Bus city? I live in Prague, and the trams are great. It is a 100% better experience than driving. Smooth, quiet, usually plenty of leg room. Doesn't smell. The busses, however, are hell. That low key vibration of the motor, the smell of the gass, the cramped spaces, the steps, all add…

> I think a lot of people in the US associate mass transit with sociallism and associate soccialism with "everyone should live like the dirt poor live". No, it's because busses in the US are actually full of dirt poor people. I know it sounds cruel, but given the choice, most Americans would rather drive than sit next to dirty, smelly homeless people and also have to listen to shouting matches, sit in close proximity…

I'm not saying they are. I am simply giving an example, Prague, where things are very different. Here, you don't have to suffer to be eco, you choose to go by tram because it is legitimately better.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#260

Post by freedrock87 »

mabramo wrote: post #233
avn2109 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bus themed solutions would definitely be an improvement over LA's status quo. However a better idea would be to reduce the need to travel long distances by building denser. LA roads are super wide right now, so the easiest way to raise density would be by putting buildings in the middle of the road, leaving a Really Narrow Street (tm) along either side. Ground floors of new buildings could be commercial, upper floors…

Here's hoping that NY, LA, and other major US cities adopt "Old Parisian" urban planning methods. Wishful thinking.

Because housing is so cheap in Paris.
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