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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#251

Post by bmelton »

anigbrowl wrote: post #187
LyndsySimon wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, the US government requires income tax to be paid on foreign earnings, even while living and working overseas. To avoid that, you'd have to also renounce citizenships, which is expensive and at the government's discretion.

EDIT: I was wrong about this, see comments below. False. If you renounce it it's expensive and difficult to get it back, and but renouncing itself is free and unilateral. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal-considerati...

How does that square with this article?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2015/10/23/u-s-has-w...

To sum up, there was a $450 renunciation fee as well as a $450 fee for relinquishment, but both were jacked up from $450 to $2,350. This does not include exit taxes and the like, but while $4700 might seem trivial to the well-heeled, it's a far cry from free (and unilateral).

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#252

Post by hammock »

nemacol wrote: post #100
lacampbell wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

You can vote, run for office, petition, volunteer, protest,etc to the local, state, and federal government to have policies that reflect your values. The only thing you can do with Uber is use it or not. Maybe you could write Uber a letter. You have a say in government - that is its stated goal and purpose. Of the people for the people.

>You can vote, run for office, petition, volunteer, protest,etc to the local, state, and federal government to have policies that reflect your values.

You can do ALL of those things with uber. You can vote as a shareholder, apply for a job, petition, volunteer, protest, etc...

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#253

Post by matt4077 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #183
chris_wot wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see them subpoenaed to explain what they were doing. They were deliberately violating the law, and trying to avoid detection just makes things much, much worse. This has got to be illegal.

> This has got to be illegal It doesn't seem that different from Cloudflare et al throwing up CAPTCHAs and blocks when I browse through Tor. Uber was trying to prevent abuse. Until someone identifies themselves as a city official or Uber is put on notice that it is under investigation, I think they are well within their rights to do this.

I don't get the analogy... Cloudflare is trying to protect websites from hacking attempts and similar, most of which is illegal. Their treatment of Tor also wasn't a deliberate decision but the result of empirical data they collected.

A government official (or anyone, actually) trying to check for compliance with the law isn't doing anything illegal.

Uber may be within their rights because companies usually have wide latitude to refuse doing business with someone, although that will ultimately depend on what kind of violations they were trying to hide, how invasive their stalking of customers was etc.

Morally, though, this is just more of the shady shit that's been coming out day after day. How any investor would be willing to trust them with their money is beyond me. Considering how intransparent their financials are, I wouldn't be surprised if this ends in an Enron-style meltdown.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#255

Post by brightball »

HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

I'm a little split on this...

I personally couldn't imagine ever doing something like this...but on the other hand Uber has clearly demonstrated demand for their service that's been fought at every corner with entrenched interests that have government connections, alluded to in the article.

I'm not endorsing it...but I can understand what would drive them to do it. Uber's playing dirty ball that's all about winning at all costs. The problem is that their opposition, for the most part...is ALSO playing dirty ball.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#256

Post by frogpelt »

us0r wrote: post #182
SilasX wrote: post #111

It took me about 8 paragraphs in to figure out what Greyball is, so to save you the time: Uber used various data sources to identify which people are likely government officials who are trying to collect incriminating data on them, and then blocks them from the service so they can't be caught in sting operations. But there's a lot in the article that doesn't make sense: >Other techniques included looking at the user’…

Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. >I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that? The first 6 digits of a credit card can identify the issuing bank (BIN number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number ). If you ask your merchant they can readily provide you and up to date list.…

I agree. The article seems to point to Greyball as proof that Uber is being shady.

Greyball is just the tool they used to keep from getting caught.

The shady part is that they operate in cities were they aren't welcome (by city officials at least, customers and drivers seemed to welcome them with open arms). If Uber operating in Portland is a night burglar, Greyball is his dark clothes and mask.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#257

Post by hammock »

mavrc wrote: post #167
darawk wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'say' you have in government is much smaller than the 'say' you have in using Uber. I can choose not to use Uber any time I please. I can not choose not to be pulled over for speeding, or opt out of murder laws temporarily. The fact that you don't have a say in Uber's corporate decisions is irrelevant, because you can simply stop using it. You don't need a say. The fact that you can't opt out of government is why…

> The 'say' you have in government is much smaller than the 'say' you have in using Uber. I can choose not to use Uber any time I please. True. I have effectively no choice in ISP, and no choice in power company. At what point do I get to vote on seats on my ISP's board, or my power company's?

When you buy shares

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#258

Post by nemacol »

scarhill wrote: post #244
nemacol wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can vote, run for office, petition, volunteer, protest,etc to the local, state, and federal government to have policies that reflect your values. The only thing you can do with Uber is use it or not. Maybe you could write Uber a letter. You have a say in government - that is its stated goal and purpose. Of the people for the people.

If 49% of people stop using Uber, Uber loses almost half its revenue and will probably be forced to change its practices or go out of business. What happens if 49% of people don't vote for a US presidential candidate?

Then we get President Trump.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#259

Post by scarhill »

rhino369 wrote: post #222
lacampbell wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

>If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. Even ignoring the fact that Uber might become a monopoly, this ignores extrenalities caused by corporations. You don't have to purchase chemicals from a chemical factory to be impacted by them dumping toxic chemicals into the water supply because it is cheaper.

Can you describe the steps that would lead to Uber becoming a monopoly? I can't imagine that happening without government help, can you? And if it requires that kind of help, is the problem with Uber or government?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#260

Post by eddieplan9 »

zymhan wrote: post #19
HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

Yeah, while I'm outraged that Uber would go to such lengths to deceive the government, and by extension the people, there's certainly a bit of schadenfreude here.

Deceiving the government does not necessarily extend to deceiving the people. It depends on whether the government represents people's interest in the case. In the Portland's case in particularly, it's absolutely certain the the government was not siding with the interest of the majority of the people.

Similarly, if someone is protesting drone strike, it does not mean he is protesting against the US people.

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