Sweden brings back military conscription • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#251

Post by Arizhel » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 7:10 PM UTC

dvdhnt wrote: post #95

chrisseaton wrote: post #6

How do you motivate a conscript? When I was in the British Army, which is volunteer only, commanding a basic training troop if someone was wanted to give up we could say to them 'if this isn't for you then you can go home' (of course we did coach and mentor people to help them, I mean in cases where people just give up and stop soldiering when an exercise gets tough). They usually worked extremely hard to get into th…

This is a topic I've often contemplated. On deployment (US Army) I couldn't help but notice how counter-productive all the "amenities" actually were. I believe one of the driving factors behind individual military success in theater (aka war), in addition to protecting your peers and pride, is that urge to finish the fight so you can get home. Having Burger King and Subway stifles that sense of urgency, IMO. During w…

>I believe one of the driving factors behind individual military success in theater (aka war), in addition to protecting your peers and pride, is that urge to finish the fight so you can get home. Having Burger King and Subway stifles that sense of urgency, IMO.

Really? Personally, having nothing to eat but Burger King and Subway trash would be a huge motivator to get home where I can get some decent food.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#252

Post by doublerebel » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 7:10 PM UTC

entropyneur wrote: post #57

I am quite surprised by the number of people here (and even larger numbers elsewhere this is being discussed) who don't seem to have any ethical problem with conscription. Thought the idea of killer slaves was completely off limits in the West. Now all of a sudden we are debating cost effectiveness. Guess I thought wrong.

Does conscription tend to make armies (and the soldiers in them) more violent or more peaceful? Is there any data on that?

My human guess and desire is that conscription would give the average citizen a better understanding of what their human rights are and why they are worth defending. I think a major issue with the US military is that the average citizen is distant from the decisions and consequences of military actions made on their behalf.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#253

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 7:13 PM UTC

Nokinside wrote: post #212

Asooka wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we're talking about one modern country invading another. It's just the land changing owners - you, as a citizen, never really owned it anyway. It belongs to the ruling class and it doesn't really matter who they are. We're all one people, we should have one language and one culture. Every modern country has the concepts you outlined above. If the new government doesn't treat you humanely, you can always take civ…

>The system is always the same, Russian and Finnish systems are not the same. Not even close.

[deleted]

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#254

Post by wmil » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 7:13 PM UTC

thedevil wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why Sweden would be concerned. I read Russian news/propaganda occasionally. Over the last few years, Russian news/propaganda prepared Russian minds for interfering in Ukraine. And the propaganda includes arguments to justify a military buildup. And it seems to be preparing Russian minds for a possible invasion of Baltic states one day. But I don't think I've even seen Sweden mentioned in Russian news/pro…

I think this is actually more about Sweden's migrant situation. Conscription at 19 is a disincentive to migrants claiming to be minors. Co-ed conscription is probably also a way to encourage integration.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#255

Post by alkonaut » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 7:14 PM UTC

nateberkopec wrote: post #40

What's the point of conscription? Surely there must be a good reason. Boosting the numbers of your military by forcefully bringing in some barely-motivated, hardly-trained conscripts that are discharged just a few months after completing basic training seems ineffective. Is there some larger "get the public used to military service" social goal?

Discharged just after training was always the norm in Sweden. Once trained there was never an army to "serve" in - unless you wanted to become an officer and train others. The peacetime organization is tiny compared to the wartime one. At it's pesk the swedish military was over 10% if the population. Most of them of course were just butchers and bus drivers who trained for a year. It was common to be called back for repeat training however.

I think the social effects are just positive side effect.

These effect do however only work when everyone is conscripted like until the 90 I think.

They bring together people from all backgrounds social ethnic and economic and force them to cooperate. I learned a lot from it. I think it can also be a great laguage training for refugees.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#256

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 7:15 PM UTC

muninn_ wrote: post #66

DamnYuppie wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need massive air and naval power to be very tough to attack. All you have to do is see the Afghan wars, both Russian and American, for great examples. They had no airforce and no need for naval forces. A large armed and mobile force is very able to put up solid resistance to pretty much anything you can throw at it save for nukes which will likely never be used.

Whatever military force was in Afghanistan never posed any sort of credible threat or resistance against the US military. The "resistance" that the US military faced came in terms of the US military wanting to try and recreate the society there, and having troops attacked while just driving around or facing resistance while conducting raids. If the US military wanted to, they could have easily destroyed every single…

Huh?

Who is in control there? Hint: not the US.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#257

Post by Arizhel » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 7:15 PM UTC

koolba wrote: post #211

derefr wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if a group of conscripts decide that they'd rather "save themselves" by blowing themselves up, along with $100mm of your materiel? And then this becomes a meme—something other conscripts hear about and copy? I could see that happening if conscription ever returned in the US—we have an awful lot of "violent pacifists" (picture what happens if you draft some of the police-brutality protestors.)

That's called being a domestic terrorist and, IMNSHO, is a prime candidate for a long prison sentence.

Actual terrorists generally aren't deterred by the threat of prison. You're talking about people willing to blow themselves up; they're not worried about prison.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#258

Post by ocschwar » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 7:17 PM UTC

entropyneur wrote: post #246

ocschwar wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have pointed out, if the nation state you live in does not have a secure hold on its territory, then you can either lose some of your freedom to conscription, or lose a whole lot more in foreign occupation.

> lose a whole lot more in foreign occupation I don't think that's the case in modern times. Unless you believe Russia (that's what we are talking about here, right?) would enslave swedes or subject them to genocide this argument doesn't work.

Dude, you don't have to be enslaved outright for your life under military occupation to suck.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#259

Post by maus42 » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 7:17 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #140

cjslep wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would be interested in the Winter War between Finland and Soviet Russia in 1939. Finland absolutely outperformed the Red Army to such an extreme that it convinced Hitler invading Soviet Russia was not going to be a problem at all. Nothing more entertaining in my mind than Finns chucking logs into tank treads to disable an entire armored division. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

It wouldn't pan out that well today though. I don't see how Sweden could ever stand up to a modernized Russian military without external assistance. But they would probably fare better than Ukraine.

During the Cold War, Sweden had one the most formidable air forces in the European theater (supported by homegrown industrial base), whatever passes for a navy in Baltic Sea and large not that badly armed conscript force, together probably quite capable of at least providing a credible hindrance to any forces the Soviets would throw against them.

I always wondered how quickly that was dismantled. I guess they still have a navy.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#260

Post by ChuckMcM » Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 7:18 PM UTC

It is sobering to think that if you have the technology you can conscript a workforce to build war fighting robots more effectively than you can conscript a force to fight for you.

I believe one of the developments in Syria and Iraq that is under appreciated by strategists is the force multiplication efforts of "cheap drones with hand grenades". Assuming that 50% of the videos on these things are fake, that is still a good case that it is getting easier and easier to turn money into usable offensive capability.

In my estimation, THAT pivot is going to have as much impact on conflicts as the machine gun did.