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Just how smart is an octopus?

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Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#251

Post by trprog »

scardine wrote: post #223
WalterSear wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because this is not proven. There's enough evidence to suggest that it is, and conclusively. When I went vegan, I also thought I was choosing a sub-optimum diet, but it was a compromise I was willing to make. As I got more educated on nutrition, I came to realize that the benefits outweighed the drawbacks substantially. People have been vegan for thousands of years. There's a plethora of information on the problems…

Call me a skeptic, but can we trust nutritionists? A few years ago foods like eggs and coffee were poison. You should eat margarine instead of butter, now it is the other way around. This science branch seems to attract charlatans.

>This science branch seems to attract charlatans.

It seems like it is incredibly difficult to perform conclusive research around nutrition, human growth etc without violating a bunch of ethical standards. The relative inability to perform research that comes to solid conclusions combined with the fact that food is something that people make purchasing decisions around every day (ie there are lots of $'s involved) creates huge scope for dubious ideas and ethically dubious businesses to thrive.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#252

Post by virmundi »

majewsky wrote: post #236
virmundi wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. In the comment above I played it from two world views. The one you espouse is the same (or similar enough) as the Christian view I mentioned. The agnostic view is there since I think, or at least assume, the majority of people on HN are agnostic. From such a view point, there is no tenable, logical reason that one should not eat meat or, in this specific case, a creature of intelligence. Such an argument com…

> From [an agnostic] view point, there is no tenable, logical reason that one should not eat meat Sure there is. Mass production of meat is one of the major fuels for global warming, so if our fitness function optimizes for survival of our species, we better go veggie. inb4 Prisoner's Dilemma

Not a bad answer, presuming humanity is a thing to preserve (not proven). Though it answer the question "Should we eat meat farmed in a mass production way" much more than should we eat meat at all. There is a theory that we can use cows to reclaim deserts (https://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_green_the_worl...). Given your argument, we could eat those cows when they come to market since they should have a positive impact on the problem.

Edit: grammar clarification.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#253

Post by eduren »

__jal wrote: post #245
eduren wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To give a bit more context for others, the novel is a really well done first contact story. I'd highly recommend it, especially because Watts makes it available online for free. http://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm

Just to run down this alley, highly seconded. It is a great, if somewhat depressing, novel. _Echopraxia_ is a continuation of the themes/story, and is just as good (and also depressing). I personally put Watts near the top of the list of first-rate, active science fiction authors.

His eye for hard science is very keen. I love that he has notes at the end of Blindsight that try to dig deeper into the approaches he had taken in the writing and add background.

I couldn't put Echophraxia down. I might hazard that I like it more than Blindsight but it'd be hard to put in words.

Which do you enjoy more?

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#254

Post by virmundi »

elastic_church wrote: post #240
virmundi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why worry? They'd eat you. Realize that all animal ethics are entirely manmade and foreign to the background of the Universe's amorality. Edit: Really down voting because you don't agree? The comment was on topic, provided a view, and contributed to the conversation in some way. If you want to down vote, please be responsible enough to say why.

> Really down voting because you don't agree? High expectations for someone thats been here for almost 10 years But I should correct you, ALL ethics are manmade, although I'm sure you are aware because anybody that would say that has accepted nihilism and the futility of moral relativity.

> High expectations for someone thats been here for almost 10 years.

A) now you've gone and made me feel old. :( B) I hope to raise awareness about how HN should be. I'm not making a rallying cry, "Make HN Great Again!" We should be more civil. People coming in for the first time might not know that.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#255

Post by signa11 »

gcr wrote: post #60
Nexxxeh wrote: post #9

I love how completely alien they are compared to us. The sort of decentralized nature of their nervous system compared to our path of evolution. (I'm no marine/evolutionary biologist so I'm probably butchering the terminology...) I loved reading the two pieces Sy Montgomery wrote that are in Orion Magazine. https://orionmagazine.org/article/deep-intellect/ And the follow-up: https://orionmagazine.org/2011/11/intervie…

If you like reading about minds that are fundamentally different from our own, you might also enjoy the science fiction novel "Blindsight" by Peter Watts. Exploring the space of possible minds in the universe is a fundamental theme of that work.

> ... reading about minds that are fundamentally different from our own...

so is 'a fire upon the deep' by vernor vinge. where you have 'tines', iirc, a race of canids comprising 4-10 (or thereabouts) members sharing a group mind (new members can be added when old ones die etc.)

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#256

Post by peatmoss »

bduerst wrote: post #130
tzs wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately for us, they have two biological strikes against developing that kind of culture. 1. They have short lifespans, limiting how much knowledge and wisdom an individual can acquire over its lifetime. 2. Reproduction is fatal. Males dies a few months after mating. Females spend all their time after the eggs are laid guarding them, and neglect to eat. They die of starvation around the time the eggs hatch. The o…

I think you've identified precisely why tribal culture would have helped octopodes: (never thought I'd be saying that today) 1. Before writing, technology was passed down through word of mouth from elders to younger generations in tribes. 2. Rearing/protecting young is assigned to specialized members of the tribe while others hunt/gather resources.

As an experiment, I wonder if octopuses could be taught rudiments of culture that would have evolutionary advantages...

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#258

Post by booleandilemma »

scardine wrote: post #224
PerfectElement wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any other situations where you look up to lions as the compass for your ethical conduct?

Honest question, why not? Are you better than lions? Are you better than sharks? Are you better than the bacteria in your guts? They all are pretty successful. Humans are so arrogant.

Arrogant, maybe, but we're the only species that has the wherewithal to expand life as we know it beyond this one rock. The future of the DNA that we all share (animals, plants, fungi, bacteria) is riding on us.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#259

Post by pacaro »

jacobush wrote: post #150
logfromblammo wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Octopus has three acceptable pluralizations in English. Octopuses is correct by English rules. Octopodes is correct by strict etymological Greek-origin rules. Octopi is correct by English's pseudo-Latin cognate rules. The latter means that any singular noun ending in a consonant and "-us" can be pluralized by chopping off the "-us" and appending an "-i" or "-ii", like alumnus, hippopotamus, virus, bacillus, hummus, l…

I don't know, could it also be because what became England was pretty romanised before the Saxon influence began in earnest?

Well the word Octopus was invented from the whole cloth by Linnaeus, presumably inspired by applying the prefix for eight, to the Ancient Greek work for an octopus which was "polypous"

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#260

Post by ch4s3 »

rlonstein wrote: post #175
ch4s3 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty excellent. For those who don't watch the videos, they feature a feeding device that must be spun to release food. Video 2 features the pig figuring out that spinning the wheel releases food, and by the last video, the pig is spinning the wheel numerous times to release several food drops before eating.

I was waiting for the pig to push all the balls out of the frame so that it could spin the feeding wheel without rooting through the balls.

I think they like rooting around
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