Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps • Hacker News Board

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#251

Post by vkou » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 7:15 PM UTC

DarkKomunalec wrote: post #57

evan_ wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It kind of already is happening in the US right now in the form of "Family detention centers" intended to detain non-citizens slated for deportation. If Trump's administration seriously plans on "rounding up" millions of people for deportation, they'll have to be lodged somewhere while they are tried (assuming they're granted trials, who knows anymore) and travel arrangements are made. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/…

Strange how enforcing borders began to be seen as controversial. The explanation that makes the most sense to me is, some people see free movement across borders as a human right, while others view a country as their home, and so should have the right to decide who to let in.

A hundred years ago, border enforcement was extremely controversial. In most places, customs cared about two things - goods, and keeping criminals and people of the wrong skin colour out of their country.

Passport-based travel was introduced in most of Europe as a 'temporary' measure, for the purposes of fighting WW I.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#252

Post by exolymph » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 7:15 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #221

jlillyreed wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say that our genocide of the indigenous people's of North America was just as bad as either of those. ..and we're still invading their lands and violating treaties with them.

This is a bit misleading, given the documented atrocities that certain Native American tribes committed against settlers. Fact is, there was no future in which they were going to keep their nice things and in which we would be able to get where we are today.

Yes, some Native American tribes treated the settlers badly too. (Even then, there was conflict within tribes regarding how to deal with whites.) But there was an order of magnitude difference in the amount of violence perpetrated and the amount of harm caused.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#253

Post by exolymph » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 7:20 PM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #168

semiel wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since these countries (in some form or other) still exist, it's tempting to start making moral comparisons and trying to figure out "which side you should be on". But that's not the most interesting approach, in my opinion. Future historians won't be picking sides, they'll be trying to put it in context, understand the conditions that led to these behaviors, and draw out trends in the period. I can imagine a section…

You may want to put quotes round "undesirables" in that last sentence to indicate more clearly that it's not a view held by your hypothetical future scholar or yourself, but rather a term used at the time.

It's a statement of fact. The regime considered those citizens to be undesirable.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#254

Post by lostlogin » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 7:20 PM UTC

vlunkr wrote: post #77

ComputerGuru wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could just compare it to the Nazi internment camps for Jews, if finding "worse" conditions is the goal. (I'm being sardonic.) (OT question: sarcastic is to sarcasm as sardonic is to ____?) These were second and third generation "immigrants" living their normal, everyday American lives, torn away from their homes, communities, jobs, schools, churches, friends, and families. The crime isn't in the living conditions…

Honestly, I'm not sure I remember this coming up in my high school education, we sort of just pretend it didn't happen. We talked extensively about other inhumane things our country has done, but the Japanese internment is just something my dad probably told me about, being sort of a WW2 buff. I think the fact that we don't talk about it makes it even a little more disturbing.

Sometimes events are a little too recent or close to home for some to talk about and this seems to exacerbate things. Down here in New Zealand a WW2 POW camp was established and during some a period of unrest New Zealand guards shot and killed 46 Japanese prisoners. More recently someone ripped out trees that were planted to commemorate the atrocity.

https://www.nzgeo.com/stories/massacre-at-featherston/

http://i.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/65751556/pow-deaths-...

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#255

Post by kmeade » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 7:31 PM UTC

FDR's Japanese Concentration Camps? FDR's?

That's a blatant attempt to simplify a historical event and manipulate the modern reader.

Please spare me another rehash of how mean we became during the GOD-DAMN SECOND WORLD WAR, when our country and culture were under REAL threat. Please spend that energy examining our modern forms of prejudice and crazy fearfulness.

Also -- Why does no one ever want to rehash the post-war US-Japan relationship? In just a few years we transitioned from vicious, no-holds-barred warfare to a cordial relationship that became delightfully friendly. It's an amazingly positive story that belies the sort of institutionalized racism that some people feel the need to believe in.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#256

Post by talmand » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 7:31 PM UTC

petulanta wrote: post #235

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is sad to think that the myth of our moral superiority has never been anything else. No, it's real, just not as real as we like to think. Between "imprison people of Japanese ancestry for the rest of the war, then free them" and "imprison people of Jewish ancestry, then kill them", there is a real moral difference. They are both wrong, but they are not equal.

So just because we didn't cause the Holocaust, we are morally superior? That's a pretty low bar and a ridiculous argument, but it says a lot about the American mindset.

I don't appreciate the generalization in that statement.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#257

Post by lodi » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 7:36 PM UTC

Turing_Machine wrote: post #82

0xfeba wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. It's a facade. Especially during the Carter, Nixon, HW Bush, etc. eras, culminating in Bush Jr's "They hate us for our Freedoms" speech after 9/11. No, they hate us for our overly zealous anti-communism that drove us to forcefully prop up dictatorships/extremist groups (Panama, Cuba, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, al Qaeda, etc.), and then vacate when things went sour. Time and time, and time again we did this in the past…

Communists of various stripes murdered somewhere around 100 million people in the last century. What, exactly, counts as "overly zealous" in that context?

1) I'd like to see a breakdown of that number.

2) By the same simplistic reasoning, Americans killed 20-30 million [1] just by themselves. I'm not sure what the totals would look like after adding in the British, French, Dutch, etc. empires.

3) I'm almost certain that that 100 million figure includes revolutions caused as a direct result of imperial powers meddling in the affairs of local populations. E.g. Cambodia [2]. That's the part that's "overly zealous".

[1] http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-has-killed-more-than-20-mill...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_United_States_s...

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#258

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 7:38 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #121

CrossWired wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you equating Mattis to Dewitt? If so, lets not forget Mattis's approach to things: Talks to the enemy diplomatically: "I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I'll kill you all" Promotes thinking rather than force from his subordinates: "You are part of the world's most feared and trusted force. Engage your brain before you engage your weap…

Banned Powerpoint too. Top bloke.

[deleted]

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#259

Post by lostlogin » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 7:44 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #92

coldpie wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next United States Secretary of Defense: "There are some people who think you have to hate them in order to shoot them. I don’t think you do. It’s just business." "You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil. You know, guys like that ain’t got no manhood left anyway. So it’s a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them. Actually it’s quite fun to fight them,…

I think the first quote was good and reasonable view. Rest were just tough talk.

What happens if you apply this logic to others? The Philippines right now for example - that tough talk escalated. Or any of the historical examples available. Assuming someone won't do what they say they will do is not a good way to elect a leader.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#260

Post by lodi » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 7:52 PM UTC

burkaman wrote: post #233

gurkendoktor wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that hard to imagine, especially in sparsely populated corners of the world. Take this article: http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-xinjiang-procedure/article... Truth? Fiction? If true, would anyone risk precious trade with China over it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_transplantation_in_China... Maybe they've killed tens of thousands of people, maybe not? Doesn't seem to inspire many Western journalists…

That's not a very good comparison. 60,000 people being executed over 6 years is very different from rounding up 3 million people, alive, in some camps. China also has no free press and a heavily censored internet. Building huge camps and housing millions of people is simply impossible to do in secret.

There's three different categories here:

1) People that didn't know there were internment/concentration camps at all.

2) People that knew there were camps, but didn't know about the murder/torture/etc. They earnestly believed these camps were for detaining prisoners, like the American camps.

3) People that knew everything.

Given that Americans knew about their own camps--and did nothing--I'm inclined to believe that #2 was by far the largest group, while #3 was relatively small.

Also, keep in mind that censored internet is one thing, no internet and fascist death squads keeping everyone in line is an entirely different level of suppression of free speech.