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Fidel Castro has died

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Re: Fidel Castro has died

#251

Post by IslaDeEncanta »

edblarney wrote: post #59
djsumdog wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cuba has been under embargos for decades. You can't blame the current situation on Castro alone. That's like saying the reason your pizza shop was burned to the ground was because you paid protection money to the wrong mafia, and it was the other one that really controlled your neighbourhood.

"Cuba has been under embargos for decades. " Cuba has been embargoed only by the USA. Cuba can buy absolutely anything it needs - even American products - simply by going through any one of a myriad of interlocutors: Mexico, Canada, Jamaica, Venezuela. There is absolutely no forgiving Fidel's cruel dictatorship.

That's not true at all. Companies that do any business with Cuba are not allowed to do business with American companies/individuals.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#252

Post by geezerjay »

matt4077 wrote: post #25

He has certainly led one of the most exciting lives of our times... And despite his flaws (and/or crimes against humanity) I can't help but wonder how Cuba would have faired under different leadership. Looking at the next-island neighbors in Haiti, or any number of comparable African countries, it seems the Cubans got the better deal. Just one example: life expectancy is 15 years higher than Haiti, and actually even…

> Looking at the next-island neighbors in Haiti, or any number of comparable African countries, it seems the Cubans got the better deal.

Why didn't you compared Cuba before the coup, and after Fidel Castro established his dictatorship?

Comparing Cuba to one of the lowest developed nations on earth, particularly while ignoring the other half of the island (Dominican republic) is a tad disingenuous.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#253

Post by bzbarsky »

matt4077 wrote: post #25

He has certainly led one of the most exciting lives of our times... And despite his flaws (and/or crimes against humanity) I can't help but wonder how Cuba would have faired under different leadership. Looking at the next-island neighbors in Haiti, or any number of comparable African countries, it seems the Cubans got the better deal. Just one example: life expectancy is 15 years higher than Haiti, and actually even…

The one word I'd like to quibble with here is "comparable".

Cuba was twice as rich as Haiti (see graph at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Cuba#/media/File:GD... for example) even before the revolution and had a lot more social capital. Yes, there was a good bit of inequality. Yes, the Batista regime was not great in all sorts of ways. But I expect Cuba would have been better off than Haiti even without the revolution happening.

What African countries are you thinking of that you consider comparable to Cuba in 1958?

Fully agreed on your last paragraph, though.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#254

Post by IslaDeEncanta »

edblarney wrote: post #63
djsumdog wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The western view of Castro is painted with decades of terrible propaganda. The Cuban people have been placed in their situation, not primarily by the Soviets or Castro, but by the American Hegemony and its unending empire across the globe. Many central and south American heads of state have tried to stand up to that empire, and many have died in plane crashes. Hugh Chavez, demonized in American media, put pieces of t…

"The western view of Castro is painted with decades of terrible propaganda." + Fidel does not allow his people to leave, with the threat of punishment. + Fidel does not allow democracy + He does not allow any real internet access + Fidel puts political dissidents in jail + Fidel's private Army own's 85% of the economy + Cuban's live in relative poverty + Only the US 'embargos' Cuba, they are free to trade with 167 ot…

You are ignorant of the reality of Cuban society. People have been able to leave Cuba freely since 1980. Cuba is a participatory democracy, with essentially every adult being involved. Internet access was not really a priority with the USSR collapsing and the recovery from that, but it is being quickly broadened. Only those who actively attempt to undermine the Cuban democracy are imprisoned, but people are free to vote for liberal candidates and a minority does. The average Cuban has a better standard of living than the average Oklahoman or Mississippian. Finally, the embargo is not just a ban on trading with Cuba; it's a ban on doing business with anyone who does business with Cuba. That effectively restricts 99% of multinationals from trading with Cuba.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#256

Post by epicureanideal »

geezerjay wrote: post #252
matt4077 wrote: post #25

He has certainly led one of the most exciting lives of our times... And despite his flaws (and/or crimes against humanity) I can't help but wonder how Cuba would have faired under different leadership. Looking at the next-island neighbors in Haiti, or any number of comparable African countries, it seems the Cubans got the better deal. Just one example: life expectancy is 15 years higher than Haiti, and actually even…

> Looking at the next-island neighbors in Haiti, or any number of comparable African countries, it seems the Cubans got the better deal. Why didn't you compared Cuba before the coup, and after Fidel Castro established his dictatorship? Comparing Cuba to one of the lowest developed nations on earth, particularly while ignoring the other half of the island (Dominican republic) is a tad disingenuous.

I'm also not a "fan" of Castro and don't identify with socialist politics, but comparing Cuba before Castro and after Castro wouldn't be fair. Pre-Castro there was a lot of foreign investment, post-Castro there was an embargo.

You can argue whether that's something that can be blamed on him, but if we were to give him the benefit of the doubt I wouldn't call that a fair comparison.

For example, there was a story posted on HN long ago about a Soviet dissident who had his life ruined because he was known to be a dissident. They didn't imprison him and torture him, they just got him fired, made sure he couldn't find any but the most menial work, discredited him, etc. Would we say that it was his fault for adopting a pro-Western position? That it was "his policies" that ruined his life, family? Or that an external force opposed to his views and more powerful than him punished him for his views?

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#257

Post by geezerjay »

meric wrote: post #71
gragas wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>with a superpower fixated on killing you (and ruining you economy) next door Look at how awful the quality of life in Cuba is today. Look at its people's lack of basic freedoms. Look at its awful economy. The US tried to save Cuba from itself.

Like how US saved Haiti and Libya and Iraq, right?

> Like how US saved Haiti and Libya and Iraq, right?

Libya was a NATO intervention that was pushed and led by France, specifically Sarkozy's government.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#258

Post by geezerjay »

chirau wrote: post #24

As an African, I'd say the world has lost one of the most influential leaders of the past century. To pretend here, for me, as if he was cruel to our continent would be both ungrateful and untrue. The man offered free training and medical school for most of our African doctors, he harbored, trained and armed many a guerilla group in our pursuit of independence from colonization. Up until today, Cuba still sends signi…

> As an African, I'd say the world has lost one of the most influential leaders of the past century.

What do you have to say, as an African, to Fidel Castro's role in the Angolan civil war, and in establishing Angola's dictatorship?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_intervention_in_Angola

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#260

Post by logicallee »

wildmusings wrote: post #233
jknoepfler wrote: post #119

I would encourage the commenters in this thread who see Fidel's legacy as a black-and-white matter of an "evil dictator who did bad things and was wrong about economics" to step back, bear witness to the objective facts about Fidel Castro's life ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro ), think sincerely about what could lead a highly intelligent and charismatic person to become or follow Fidel Castro (as many ha…

My family and the family of just about everyone I grew up around had their whole lives destroyed by this evil man. He has executed thousands, has imprisoned thousands more, and has totally ruined a country that was once the most prosperous in Latin America. You may philosophize about the 'complexity' of the life of this evil man, but for people who actually lived under his abuse, who have seen what he has done to the…

At the national assembly the sad news is stated: "Fidel Castro has passed away. However, his legacy lives on!"

The old man in the back of the audience, marcoperaza, sighs and says, "Alas! If only it were the other way around..."

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