Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then we hit the problem that if we don't push that request at users, probably a tiny fraction will turn it on. Worse, that fraction will be the statistically unusual people who bother reading and finding such options, meaning we can't derive any statistically useful results about the user base from them!
Maybe you should ask them better. For example you could ask for help on the home page of your project or in the beginning of a tutorial. Or maybe they do not want to paticipate. Is it right to ignore this and turn analytics on by default?
Brew commands send data to Google Analytics
251–260 of 342 posts
Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics
#252Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The EU approach to privacy (eroded by lobyying and lack of control over US companies) is that citizens have a right over their information. They can ask what personal information a company has on them, ask that it be corrected or deleted. This has resulted in companies that are more careful with data. More like, this has resulted in things like nonsensical "Cookie warnings" that only waste the user's time.
Cookie warnings are an indicator showing that a website takes part in a global spying network. But I think instead of warnings browser developers should just disable third-party cookies by default. Sadly, the most popular browser developer by conicidence owns a popular tracking service so that is not going to happen.
Or maybe they want to persist session information?
Maybe browsers should prompt, instead of each website, but it's too late for that now.
Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics
#253Yes we know. brew tells you that. And you can disable it. Data is being sent to Google everytime you do almost anything in almost all websites, using the same technology. So what? Some of the times it's to make the product better, or better targeted. Some other times it's just for spying on the users. Let's stop complaining about stuff that someone does and tell you they do it. There are many more that do the same th…
Is tracking user's actions the only way to improve software? That is not what one would expect from free and open source software project. If developers needs an information about how user uses a program, they should ask them to help.
Agreed, but please note that Homebrew is only open-source, it is not "free software"[1].
[1] - https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point....
Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics
#254Earlier quoted context omitted.
The US approach to privacy is "let the market sort it out". It has sorted it out by transforming the internet into a giant spying machine sucking up contacts, photos, documents, videos, metadata, what packages you use, when where and how you exercise, everything The EU approach to privacy (eroded by lobbying and lack of control over US companies) is that citizens have a right over their information. They can ask what…
> Companies don't need analytics to improve software. I was with you except this line. Data is needed to make better choices and prioritize improvements. How would you like people to collect data? Google Analytics is free, easy, and powerful. Adding the cost of buioding a KPI tracking and reporting later from scratch... simply would be too much for most open source projects.
Take a dozen, or two dozen, users and give them your product, let them use it, and get far more results from that?
You can even do these things for free, especially in open source many of your potential users are willing to do this.
Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics
#255Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Data is being sent to Google everytime you do almost anything in almost all websites using the save technology No, it's not. µblock, µmatrix + clean links.
Is there a point in running both ublock and umatrix? Also, what do you mean by "clean links"? Striped of "utm..." parts?
Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics
#256Earlier quoted context omitted.
Let's assume that 90% of people don't bother to turn off telemetry and 10% do. That also means that in your preferred scenario, 90% of people wouldn't bother to turn it on and the 10% also wouldn't turn it on either. If you can't be bothered to turn something off, why would you be bothered to turn it on? That means that you'll either get something close to 0% telemetry if it's default off, or 90% if it's default on.…
> If you can't be bothered to turn something off, why would you be bothered to turn it on? If people aren't turning telemetry on, do you think they really want to send you data in the first place? What you are doing is exploiting users assumptions of how normal CLI tools behave. They don't assume it's going to relay my information back to google when I use it. Your entire argument essentially boils down to, "I'm sure…
My argument is not specific to telemetry, it's a general one. If you have an option to do something that's not a default and it's not part of the software's core functionality, most people aren't going to consider it even if it would be to their advantage. For example, make -j.
It's for that reason that I don't think the "if they aren't turning it on then they don't want it" argument holds as much water as you think it does. That argument groups together three groups of people: people that know about the setting and don't want it on, people that don't know about the setting and don't want it on, and people that don't know about the setting and would be happy if it was on.
Ironically, if you had good telemetry you'd be able to figure out how many people fall in to each group and make decisions about settings based on accurate data. Without that, you're forced to work on assumptions.
> Your entire argument essentially boils down to, "I'm sure I can get away with taking my users' information by making it the default behavior with a buried notification and I can placate people who care about privacy with an opt-out."
I think you're making the assumption that telemetry has to violate your privacy in all kinds of heinous ways and therefore only be a bad thing. If that's your mindset, of course you're going to think that I'm the kind of person that's out to trick and fool people and betray their privacy. And in all fairness to you, it's reasonable to be jaded when companies like Microsoft have horrible things like P2P software update distribution enabled by default. It's reasonable to be jaded when you don't get told exactly what kind of data is being sent back as telemetry. There's a fine line between "this is good" and "you're just relying on people not knowing how to change the defaults in order to try and get away with horrible things" and all too often that line is crossed.
But I'm an idealist. I see the good things that can come out of having telemetry. I want to know if my software has started getting popular in locales that I haven't written translations for yet so I can commission a translation to improve the experience for people in that locale. I want to know if there's a setting many people turn off so that I can consider turning it off by default to match user expectations. I want to know if my users are sticking to older OS versions because if they are I need to keep older hardware around in order to test and provide them the best possible experience.
I don't think anyone would have an issue with software sending back that data (and only that data) if you clearly tell them that's happening, and I also think that most people would be perfectly fine with that being a default behaviour. Of course, there is always going to be a group of people that will have an issue with sending back that data and that's why I made the point about keeping it as an option.
That group isn't just "pesky users who I only care about for promotion" (perhaps I was too flippant about saying that in my original comment). They could be trying to harden a machine so that it only uses the network under known circumstances. At the same time, you'd hope that software intended for use by people who need comprehensive privacy like whistleblowers wouldn't have telemetry at all.
Given that OS X isn't 100% free software, no one should be using brew in that kind of comprehensive privacy situation and so having telemetry isn't inherently bad.
It's the "clearly tell them that's happening" bit that's the issue here. If you have software that has been around for a long time that doesn't do something and then in a new release it starts doing that thing, you need to let people know that! It doesn't matter whether that's telemetry or anything else - if it's something that violates existing expectations you need to tell your users loud and clear.
Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics
#257Earlier quoted context omitted.
That cookie warning is just a friendly reminder that you are being tracked everywhere. Of course, websites that don't track their users are exempt: http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm I guess the EU didn't expect websites to cling to tracking cookies like their lives depended on them.
Cookie law is one of the stupidest laws that EU forced. I had to install additional rules to adblocker to get rid of this nonsense and it still doesn't catch everything and keeps irritating me... I don't care, damn it! http://nocookielaw.com/
The law is pretty simple: If you track users, or transmit information to third parties which could track the user, you have to get the user to opt-in.
The original intention was to get rid of Facebook’s shadow profiles, which it did – in the EU, websites don’t embed Facebook’s like button anymore, but have a two-click solution, where you have to click it, then it’s actually loaded, then you can like.
That alone is worth such a law.
Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics
#258Earlier quoted context omitted.
Cookie warnings are an indicator showing that a website takes part in a global spying network. But I think instead of warnings browser developers should just disable third-party cookies by default. Sadly, the most popular browser developer by conicidence owns a popular tracking service so that is not going to happen.
> global spying network Or maybe they want to persist session information? Maybe browsers should prompt, instead of each website, but it's too late for that now.
That’s specifically exempt from the cookie law: Any technical cookie – session information, config options, etc – is allowed without any request.
The Cookie law only requires opt-in for tracking. Such as Google Analytics.
Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics
#259Earlier quoted context omitted.
It has resulted in a lot of good things. Cookie consent is most certainly not one of them.
IMO, the intent was good... but yeah, the implementation is a grand demonstration of what you get when legislators don't understand the technology they're regulating. It would be far better if they'd required browsers, not websites, to show the notifications - much like they already do when a site wants to access your webcam/mic/location/etc[0]. That would mean much less implementation work (once per browser instead…
The law allows storing session info, config options, etc without prompting. The browser couldn’t reliably test that.
Unless you’d also let login to sites be handled by the browser, akin to Mozilla’s Persona.
Damn, that’d actually be a much nicer web.
Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics
#260Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is tracking user's actions the only way to improve software? That is not what one would expect from free and open source software project. If developers needs an information about how user uses a program, they should ask them to help.
this is going to sound insulting, but have you tried being an open-source developer? I've worked on products with tens of thousands of users, and the vast majority of those users never communicate. Worse (in my opinion), the users who communicate most tend to be experts, leading to programs tending to become better for expert users, and worse for beginners / occasional users -- see for example how many linux programs…
Nor is it a reason to even try tracking with Google Analytics.
In my case, I ensure that the backend server is also FLOSS, that no problematic data is transferred, and so on. All FLOSS, everything verifiable by the users.
But running Google Analytics? Without prompting the user?
Great...