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U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

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Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#251

Post by dagw »

nightski wrote: post #154
wojcech wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sentiment is so bizarre from a European perspective. So the only thing that stops people from getting an education willy nilly is student debt? Or American engineers are all better in some respects than German engineers because of their debt?

I never really said any of that. The reality is that you can get a really good college education for rather cheap in the U.S. if you are smart about it. I could of gone to a local state college for 1/10th the tuition of a private school and received an education at a very similar level. I just feel that a free for all education system (ala Bernie Sanders) would be detrimental. Having things be somewhat exclusive and…

Having things be somewhat exclusive and require some amount of effort is not necessarily a bad thing.

Getting into your first choice program at your first choice university often requires a lot of effort, and the people who graduate from those programs are often part of a somewhat exclusive group. It's just that the effort required is entirely on your academic and intellectual qualifications rather than financial and persona connections.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#252

Post by pjc50 »

douche wrote: post #231
oblio wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sometimes people get rich through scams, fraud, theft, and other shady dealings, but in a society with law and order, this is the exception rather than the rule. How about inherited wealth? Large groups of people are excluded from your wonderful vision of society.

I don't understand the hate inherited wealth gets here sometimes. It is the only realistic way to improve your family's lot in life over the generations.

It's not at all compatible with the view that wealth reflects your contribution to society (expressed upthread). Or individualist meritocracy which HN is so fond of.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#253

Post by tptacek »

petre wrote: post #112
rayiner wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids can't think rationally about debt because their parents and teachers have overinflated the importance of everyone going to college and have actively discouraged critical thinking on these issues.

So send them to college elsewhere? in Canada? Europe?

Many of them can do as I did and go straight from high school to the work force. Others can go into apprenticeships in the skilled trades. Still more to community and vocational colleges to learn business management or accounting.

The fastest growing profession for 4-year college graduates is "HR professional". Come on. You don't need a college degree to be an HR rep, or to be a sales account manager, or to work in a purchasing department. That's something like 60% of the white collar jobs in a typical corporation, which we pretend that you need to spend $150,000 on a Russian Lit degree to competently execute.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#254

Post by awinder »

shaftoe wrote: post #214
JulianMorrison wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic income. Free tuition. An outright grant, no repayments. Literally zero barriers except ability for anyone, for any level of academic achievement in anything. Result: a culture with a lot more understanding of the real world, and the preservation of human and humane values, rather than a laser focus on the hand-to-mouth of Jobs Right Now.

That sounds great, but there's no free lunch and when you ask people to pay (a lot) for something, you're going to get their opinion. Here's mine. I roughly divide human activities into jobs and hobbies. One ultimately builds enough value to support existence, one is primarily done for enjoyment. Education for the former can and should pay for itself over the long haul, so we're discussing who pays for hobby educatio…

I'm sorry but, insinuating that humanities and arts are "hobby educations" is pretty rude and smacks of superiority complex.

Look at the achievements that have stood the test of time and become valuable to us as a species. It's a pretty beautiful blending of scientific achievement and artistic achievement. If this system can't encourage both, let's not go to war with the arts, let's make the system that we invented, support the things that are important to us.

Beyond that, from my perspective, more of my tax dollars will go towards issues and causes that I am personally conflicted with than ones that I agree with. The college loan issue will never compete with the size and scope of something like the military. So it's beautiful that you would be personally affronted by this use of tax dollars but: welcome to the club, est. 1776

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#255

Post by pjc50 »

farright wrote: post #223
Pyxl101 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Earning a high level of income makes life extraordinarily comfortable, to the point where it is easy to become complacent and stop trying to really contribute to society in a meaningful way. Earning a high level of income in general already signifies that a person is contributing to society in a meaningful way. Their income is reflective of the service provided to others. All corporations exist to better the lives…

It's hilarious that the one thing that is consistently down voted on hn is economic orthodoxy. This is absolutely no different to the anti vaccination movement. People are simply too lazy and arrogant to listen to what the economics profession has to say, and ignore that fact that the methods, organization and incentives of the economics profession are identical to the rest of academicia.

Which side of economics, the "freshwater" or "saltwater" side? There isn't the kind of consensus in economics that there is in, say, climate change. And economics is much more susceptible to funding-based distortion.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#256

Post by pjc50 »

kbart wrote: post #201
Pyxl101 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Earning a high level of income makes life extraordinarily comfortable, to the point where it is easy to become complacent and stop trying to really contribute to society in a meaningful way. Earning a high level of income in general already signifies that a person is contributing to society in a meaningful way. Their income is reflective of the service provided to others. All corporations exist to better the lives…

"A tremendous income generally comes from delivering tremendous value in the world to others" So, you want to say that Kim Kardashian[0] provides more value to the world per year than ~1230 paramedics[1] combined? 0. http://moneynation.com/kim-kardashian-net-worth/ 1. http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/emergency-medical-...

Or one Trump being worth about 116,000 paramedics?

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#258

Post by aianus »

avar wrote: post #176
danjayh wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to propose a different option, one that would actually solve a lot of the current problems in the USA ... before posting a response, please read the 'why' section below. - The government stops guaranteeing student debt to banks - Students are allowed to declare bankruptcy and discharge their debt after N number of years, if they can prove that they're financially unable to pay & the market will not bear a sa…

Having a system where you revoke the degree for lack of payment would just create a system where revoked degrees would be equally valuable, since everyone would know they were the same, except for some bank being ripped off.

But you wouldn't be able to distinguish between "revoked degree" and "lied about a degree" so you would assume the latter.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#259

Post by aianus »

ekianjo wrote: post #156
toomanybeersies wrote: post #6

Every time I read articles about student loans in the USA, the options are always presented as either the current state, or free tuition. Why are interest free student loans never floated as an option? Here in New Zealand, our student loans are provided by the government and are interest free as long as we reside in New Zealand. It means that people who don't do tertiary education, or who do a trade, don't subsidise…

> student loans are provided by the government and are interest free as long as we reside in New Zealand. If you give interest free loans there is a strong incentive from the universities to increase their fees. How do you fix that issue?

At least in Ontario, Canada the schools cannot raise tuition without asking the government for permission.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#260

Post by awinder »

matwood wrote: post #236
JulianMorrison wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic income. Free tuition. An outright grant, no repayments. Literally zero barriers except ability for anyone, for any level of academic achievement in anything. Result: a culture with a lot more understanding of the real world, and the preservation of human and humane values, rather than a laser focus on the hand-to-mouth of Jobs Right Now.

Basic income I think is going to have to happen at some point in our lifetime. There are just simply not enough jobs. Please stop saying 'free' tuition. It's not free, it is just not paid by the student. Keep in mind that many states already have just this setup for in state students to use lottery money.

It's also the mode of operation for ages 5-18, with a nation wide avg of 12K / year in spending per student. So that 160k-ish in spending is downright American, but spending 1/4-1/2 of it on college is a give-away, socialism, the very demise of lady liberty
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