Shame on Y Combinator • Hacker News Board

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#251

Post by jessaustin » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 1:53 PM UTC

rfrey wrote: post #226

cerebrum wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The entire Trump ideology is based on a belief that "real Americans" are being oppressed by a sinister "global elite". Yes there is in fact a campaign of elites against Trump, in case you don't believe that I suggest taking a look at the recent wikileaks.

What are Trump and Thiel if not "elites"? So it seems the elites are campaigning against each other.

At times I've suspected this entire cacophony of anti-Trump vitriol was just a ploy to convince the plebes that he isn't one of TPTB... What would really change under Trump? Coke and Pepsi taste the same to me.

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#252

Post by ThomPete » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 1:53 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #240

ThomPete wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as long as no one have actually formulated an argument based on facts how Trump is a threat to democracy I dont see how he is more dangerous than Hillary, Bush or Obama. And i am pretty sure a large portion of people outide the US see those three as bigger threats to their lives than Trump given US foreign policy. So until someone show how the us system can be destroyed by Trump I stand by my position that Trump is n…

If you believe that Trump is no more dangerous than Clinton, your support for Peter Thiel makes sense, and, while I'd implore you to reconsider, I'm content for us to agree to disagree. But Sam Altman and Paul Graham don't agree with you. They virulently disagree with you. They repeatedly compare Trump to a fascist dictator. They claim Trump is an existential threat to our democracy. Paul Graham said that if Trump wi…

Or perhaps you are hijacking their words and misrepresent their actual opinions.

Perhaps they dont believe its as litterally as you do. It would certainly make sense since claiming Trump is Stalin is as ill informed as it is absurd.

Just like you are ready to ignore your principles for a bigger belief so is Theil. He is not voting for Trump he is voting for change. The very change everyone agrees is needed.

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#253

Post by 7Z7 » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 1:54 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #206

galactus wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the fundamental principle that no matter what in a democracy everyone have the right to say and mean what they want without having to fear the repercussions" I think you are mixing things, Democracy does not give anyone the right to be liked even when they say awful stuff. Marco is not saying that supporting Trump should be illegal, he is saying that supporting Trump is shameful, and that supporting someone who supp…

`Supporting` someone who supports Trump? You do realize he's not their employee, he's wealthy, and most certainly wouldn't change his mind if YC or all of you disagreed with him, right? This is all political/"moral outrage" theater.

Only if you presume the point is to change Thiel's mind - which it clearly isn't.

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#254

Post by tptacek » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 1:54 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #241

tptacek wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is suggesting excluding Trump supporters from employment.

Would anyone be shocked if that came up in Part II? Brendan Eich wouldn't be...

There's no political argument that you can't turn into a slippery slope like this. You can get to Brendan Eich with just a few more hops from a starting point of "refusing to donate to Trump". So that argument isn't very interesting.

What might interest you more is that I agree with you about Brendan Eich. I think Eich's situation is nothing at all like that of Thiel's. Eich was a full-time employee of Mozilla. From what I know of the situation, Eich hadn't made any of his employees at Mozilla uncomfortable. Eich's support for Proposition 8 was quiet: people dug it out of a database to use against him. And while I disagree with the stance he took against marriage equality, opposition to marriage equality doesn't challenge equal access to the channels of democracy. Eich wasn't campaigning to remove the Muslims from our country, or to imprison those who disagree with him.

What happened to Eich was wrong.

But nothing like that is happening here.

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#255

Post by cerebrum » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 1:54 PM UTC

rfrey wrote: post #226

cerebrum wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The entire Trump ideology is based on a belief that "real Americans" are being oppressed by a sinister "global elite". Yes there is in fact a campaign of elites against Trump, in case you don't believe that I suggest taking a look at the recent wikileaks.

What are Trump and Thiel if not "elites"? So it seems the elites are campaigning against each other.

Elites relative to whom? Clinton has decades in the top echelons of power besides being married to an ex-POTUS so I guess it is hard to be more elite on a global scale.

Trump might be elite compared to the average Joe on the street but he has no political history comparable to Clinton.

And the biggest issue of all: Trump seems to be the best candidate to avoid WW III.

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#256

Post by tptacek » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 1:54 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #252

tptacek wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe that Trump is no more dangerous than Clinton, your support for Peter Thiel makes sense, and, while I'd implore you to reconsider, I'm content for us to agree to disagree. But Sam Altman and Paul Graham don't agree with you. They virulently disagree with you. They repeatedly compare Trump to a fascist dictator. They claim Trump is an existential threat to our democracy. Paul Graham said that if Trump wi…

Or perhaps you are hijacking their words and misrepresent their actual opinions. Perhaps they dont believe its as litterally as you do. It would certainly make sense since claiming Trump is Stalin is as ill informed as it is absurd. Just like you are ready to ignore your principles for a bigger belief so is Theil. He is not voting for Trump he is voting for change. The very change everyone agrees is needed.

I am not.

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#257

Post by 551199 » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 1:54 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #204

ThomPete wrote: post #127

Marcos understanding of this situation is extremely telling for a fundamental problem with many americans relationship with politics. Most only get involved around election. After that their political interest is non existing. It's easy to get lured into the idea that politics is a simple choice between the moral good and the moral bad, that the choice is simple and that there is a one to one relationship between wha…

That is in fact not a fundamental principle of democracy. There is no work of political philosophy anywhere that suggests we should be able to say whatever we'd like "without fear of repercussions". What is a principle of liberal philosophy, though, is that we should be tolerant of the beliefs of others (in the sense of not intervening to suppress them), including intolerant beliefs, until those intolerant beliefs th…

The way Democrats are running their campaign they are the real threat to democracy. Newest leak:

For those without time to watch:

Scott Foval, National Field Director at Americans United for Change, discloses a number of unethical (and perhaps illegal) activities on undercover camera conducted by the liberal advocacy group Americans United for Change, with various PACs and the DNC.

Evidence of Democrat organizers paying agitators to disrupt Trump rallies in efforts to smear Trump supporters.

Evidence of collusion between superPACs and the DNC. Foval describes his middlemen who get around the law to commit these crimes.

Discusses strategy for “initiating conflict by having leading conversations with people who are naturally psychotic” – Foval is referring to paying agitators to instigate trouble at Trump events here, calling Trump supporters “naturally psychotic.”

Aaron Black, DNC Rapid Response Coordinator, boasts about planning a Chicago protest at a Trump event. Two Chicago police reporters got hurt at this event.

Scott Foval admits planting a “supporter” (friend of Foval) who gets rough treatment at a Scott Walker event. Foval also staged people in the crowd for a “reaction.”

Scott Foval brags about hiring homeless and mentally-ill people to protest and agitate at various Trump events.

Foval calls half the state of Iowa “racist as fuck.” Wisconsin too.[0]http://regated.com/2016/10/project-veritas-clinton-camp-corr... [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuJGHuIkzY

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#258

Post by civilian » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 1:55 PM UTC

byuu wrote: post #229

didgeoridoo wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine questions here: Should newspapers (i.e. corporations) be allowed to endorse candidates? If so, how is this not spending money (paper, ink, time) to influence elections? If not, how is this not an unacceptable limitation on free speech? And, (to address a common objection to this line of reasoning), if "bona fide media organizations" get special free speech protections not available to the rest of us, who deci…

Before this goes on too long, I'd like to stress that I don't have all the perfect answers in life. I don't think my views are perfect, but they are what I believe. I know that often, how things 'should' be require laws that are basically impossible to write. But I really don't think I am being that unreasonable to say there's something grossly unfair about one person being able to pour in millions of dollars into an…

Good answer. So, what we're really boiling down to, is that it's unfair that Peter Thiel has more influence than other people?

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#259

Post by cerebrum » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 1:55 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #251

rfrey wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are Trump and Thiel if not "elites"? So it seems the elites are campaigning against each other.

At times I've suspected this entire cacophony of anti-Trump vitriol was just a ploy to convince the plebes that he isn't one of TPTB... What would really change under Trump? Coke and Pepsi taste the same to me.

Change: no WW III. Seems good enough of a difference to me.

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#260

Post by alextheparrot » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 1:55 PM UTC

munin wrote: post #203

ThomPete wrote: post #127

Marcos understanding of this situation is extremely telling for a fundamental problem with many americans relationship with politics. Most only get involved around election. After that their political interest is non existing. It's easy to get lured into the idea that politics is a simple choice between the moral good and the moral bad, that the choice is simple and that there is a one to one relationship between wha…

> he represents a group of people who haven't been represented for the last 40 years No he doesn't. He doesn't appeal to or represent poor whites, those vote D. He also doesn't appeal to or represent minorities, immigrants, or women. Those also vote D. He appeals to and represents white men that have a household income slightly higher than the median. Those people have been nothing but listened to for the last 140 ye…

I think the group he is referring to is my parent's demographic, working class Americans in factories. Whereas the Democratic party once supported labor movements and unionization as a primary cause, social welfare and rights issue have moved to be the primary (Please note this is a generalization, but mirrors their perspective).

The result is that they see a candidate who promises isolationist policies (Keep our manufacturing jobs here, as they've seen them go to China and Mexico for decades) as a more viable candidate than one who continues to drive for more globalization.

In passing, I'd like to note that my father actually preferred Cruz, which may match your description slightly better, while my mother preferred Trump largely for the reasons I listed above.