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Music theory for nerds

eev.ee

251–260 of 390 posts

Re: Music theory for nerds

#251

I'd like to elaborate a bit, in the same "for nerds" manner, on where Eevee seems to get lost a bit with scales and notation. He (she? not sure) calls the A minor and C major scales the same, because they contain the same notes. That's not an odd thought, but it's like calling sine and cosine the same because both functions contain the same set of values, in the same order. The difference is phase. Basically, scales…

Thanks, that's an explanation I haven't heard that way before, but that makes sense to me. Follow-up question: how are phase of the scale and the piece of music synchronized? When I think in terms of a wave, I could Fourier-Transform it into sines or in cosines, or any other phase-shifted variant (a * sin(nx + const.))? Is it always the first note of the piece of music that "anchors" the piece in its scale? Does that…

This gets pretty complicated and subjective.

Strictly speaking, a "note" cannot define a key. To determine a key, you really need at least 2 intervals, wherein interval a somehow resolves to interval b. Keys are just a mapping of relationships; how does each of the 12 notes relate to each other? If you just play a C major chord, you aren't really playing in the key of CMaj, you're just playing a CMaj chord.

For example: Play B+G, then C+G. This is (arguably) C major. The B note resolves into the C note. That's the 7th moving into the Tonic (#1). This is an example of a V-I resolution, the strongest possible. If you'd like more examples, look up "cadences". There are 'principles' for determining the key, but they should not be understood as proofs.

I think you're also asking if/how to change keys. This is not only possible, but often highly encouraged. There are two extremely common key changes in pop music: 1) Up one step: This is incredibly common and can be heard in "I Will Always Love You" (album version, right after the 3 minute mark when she starts singing the chorus again). Once you start hearing this, you can't stop. It's all over the place. If we're in the key of C, we'll just play a D chord with a lot of confidence, typically after a G chord. 2) Minor to Major (or reverse, moving from sine to cosine in the analogy): This is much more subtle than the previous example. Typically you'll recognize this as a change in 'mood' or 'feeling'. You'll find a lot of Am-Em changes, then the chorus will be a lot of C-G changes. The tonic changes from Am to C, even though all the chords and notes being used are still the same (although the duration of said chords will probably be different).

Most "classical" music moves around keys pretty frequently, in extreme cases multiple times within a measure. And then there are chords/sections in which the key is debatable if not indiscernible (I would argue that the intro to Smashing Pumpkins "1979" is changing keys every 2 measures, but I think there's also a strong argument for it being in a single key)

Thinking about keys in terms of phases is a good basic explanation, but ultimately phase is much easier to measure. Perhaps I see it this way because my understanding of music is much better than my understanding of physics.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a beginner can't immediately grasp musical notation, isn't that evidence that it is, in fact, absurd?

So if you can't read Italian after a half-arsed effort to learn it, is this proof Italian is broken?

Not as badly as English is broken.

I mean, it's generally agreed that English as a language has accrued so much historical baggage that it's shed any elegance or coherence it may or may not have once had. It would honestly be surprising to me if the same thing didn't happen to musical language.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#253
post #152

> It completely obscures the relationship between the pitches, though. It doesn't actually obscure the relationship between the notes -- it makes them clearer. For example, I see the notes C, E, and G on some sheet music, maybe with some accidentals on some of those notes. I know that I'm therefore supposed to play a C triad. Now, there are multiple kinds of triads, but once I know I'm supposed to play a triad, it's…

> we say that a piece is in the key of C major when it resolves to the a C major chord at the end Can you ELI5 that for me, please? I'm very interested to have a better understanding of that concept.

Just as it can be said that music requires at least 3 consecutive notes or beats to have a tempo and a rhythm, it can also be said that it requires a "cadence" which at bare minimum is two consecutive pitched notes but usually at least three.

C-G-C is a simple 'harmonic' cadence. It is, for example, the basis of oom-pah music (think military marches which repeat C-G in the bass with a melody on top, and end on C when the melody is done).

There is a form of musical analysis (Schenkerian) that can be used to show that nearly all music has the basic form C-G-C, which is usually expressed as I-V-I (chord I is C major and chord V is the 5th chord of C major, which is G major). It is of course nowhere near as simple as I've expressed here!

So resolution is basically the cadence of the piece's harmony, much like a story has beginning, middle and end, so does harmony.

The reason chord V and chord I are so powerfully related is that the 3rd note of V is the leading note of chord I and the 7th note of V is the 4th of chord I. This is actually significant to understand because it is how one can see the purest relationship between harmony and melody. In early music (eg medieval plainsong) the fundamentals of more complex harmony were first developed from melody.

In the case of C major with two voices, the notes would provide resolution from notes F and B to notes E and C. The FB is a tritone, which is dissonant and wants to be resolved in the human ear. The EC is the major triad of C major, which is harmonious and consonant and resolves the dissonance of FB.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#254
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we say that a piece is in the key of C major when it resolves to the a C major chord at the end Can you ELI5 that for me, please? I'm very interested to have a better understanding of that concept.

Broadly speaking, major chords sound bright and happy. Minor chords sound dark and sad. The C major scale consists of C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C. The A-minor scale consists of A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A. Those are the same notes, but if you play each of those patterns on a keyboard, the first one sounds happy, the second one sounds sad. A C-major chord (technically, triad) is made up of C-E-G, the first, third, and fifth notes of the scal…

> the final chord tells you the key

That makes it sound like a definitive rule, but it's just a common convention.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#255

This is an interesting article, which touches on a lot of interesting musical topics. However, it's wrong on so many levels that I would never recommend it to someone who wants to understand music theory. I'll try to summarize. I spent a long time researching where Western music "comes from". One important thing to understand is that the key feature of Western music is harmony. This is not the case for most other mus…

> This is not the case for most other musical traditions. Do you have examples of musical traditions that don't do this? Both the Indian and Chinese musical systems do something similar. ---- I'm not really sure if this post is "wrong". It gets the chronology mixed up a bit -- talking of twelfth roots of two before talking about ratios, but I thought that was just done to help explain things by reverse-engineering th…

I'm not an expert, but Indian classical music isn't known for having harmony in the same sense [1]. Modern Indian music is influenced by Western music. I know even less about Chinese music, which isn't mentioned in that article. But in all the sources I've read, the concept of deeply developed chordal harmony is pretty unique to the Western music tradition.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony

Re: Music theory for nerds

#256

I'd like to elaborate a bit, in the same "for nerds" manner, on where Eevee seems to get lost a bit with scales and notation. He (she? not sure) calls the A minor and C major scales the same, because they contain the same notes. That's not an odd thought, but it's like calling sine and cosine the same because both functions contain the same set of values, in the same order. The difference is phase. Basically, scales…

It's not even just that. They are only "the same" with equal temperament. If you use proper intervals then they are quite different.

I'm not sure this applies here. Equal temperament explains how an interval is in tune and does not determine what key a song is in.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#257
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that shows how WTF the musical notation is.

o.O why so? And what on earth do you propose?

C is 0. Each half-tone up is +1.

If you really want to keep it concise you can write it as base-12 numbers.

    C1 C1# D1 D1# E1 F1 F1# G1 G1# A1 A1# B1 C2 C2# D2 D2# E2 F2 F2# G2 G2# A2 A2# B2 ...
    00 01  02 03  04 05 06  07 08  09 0a  0b 10 11  12 13  14 15 16  17 18  19 1a  1b ...
First number is octave. Second number is half-tone in that octave. Translating is just mechanical addition.

EDIT: on second thought making it base-12 just to save some space makes no sense, people are good with base-10, just keep the numbers.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can sight read for winds and voice, but not for Piano, despite being able to play Piano relatively well. Thus, this explanation will probably apply mostly to single-voice musicians. 1. Find Do. This is the first note of the Major scale in the key which you are playing. Find it on the page, and burn it into your mind; everything you're about to do centers on the location of Do. In the key of C (white keys on a piano…

"2. Learn your intervals, and learn Solfege. If you're a musician, you already know these things in principal, even if you don't know the words or the terminology. In particular, you should be able to "hear" the distance between Do-Mi-Sol without too much difficulty, because you hear those distances in music a lot." I believe the Solfege named intervals (Do-Re-Mi-Fa-So-La-Ti-Do) are only taught as a historical oddity…

Nearly all aural skills classes (learning to hear/sing music) for music majors use solfege or something like it. Some people use scale degree numbers instead (so a IV chord in a major key is "4-6-1" rather than "fa-la-do"), but the concept is still very useful.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#259
post #176

Many musicians much better than me are surprised at how I can play a song just by hearing it on the radio. My breakthrough came from understanding music was realizing that the real “meaning” of a note lies in its position relative to the tonic note (e,g, I-II-II, etc, also written do-re-mi). Suddenly, almost all of the clutter was removed, and the problem became manageable. Let's consider the three-note tune “do, re,…

Many (but not all, or even the majority) music classrooms around the world teach students fluency in solfege (do-re-mi), and everyone I've spoken to about it agrees it helps out a lot in the way you describe.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#260
post #224

My main problem with music notation is the difference between C-C# and E-F interval. That is - there's no difference, but notations pretends there is one because that's how we put the keys closer to each other or some other historical reason.

This is (sometimes) a legitimate gripe about the standard notation system, which is that it's optimized for music in a key.

Sometimes there is a difference between E-F and C-C#. In the key of F major, E-F is the leading tone moving to tonic, which is a diatonic interval (a diatonic half-step). C-C#, on the other hand, is a chromatic half-step: in F major, it represents an alteration of scale degree 5 (sol). If you see C# in F major, there's a good chance it's going towards D, as a temporary leading tone. This is a useful distinction! The E-F half-step in F major (or C major, or A or D minor) is completely typical and not at all remarkable, while the C-C# half-step is much rarer.

In musics where there isn't a key, you're right that it doesn't make any sense to draw a distinction between the two. This is one reason that the music of the 2nd Viennese School (Schoenberg, Webern, Berg) is so impossible to look at: the structure of the music is obfuscated by the structure of the notation. Schoenberg was trying to come up with a 12-tone notation system for a while, but ultimately abandoned it.

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