Live data from Hacker News

The future is fewer people writing code?

techcrunch.com

251–256 of 256 posts

Re: The future is fewer people writing code?

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said this before, the reason code and CLI and texting and messaging all these text based modes of communicating and controlling computers are still popular is that they mirror one of the most intuitive and fundamental inventions humans have ever created: language, specifically, written language. Even speech doesn't rival written word in some contexts; for example, laws and organization rules, policies, are still…

I appreciate the context of your argument when you discuss the use of text in by-laws, but it's worth noting that there are lots of examples of by-laws being enforced via non-text mediums: 1) road signs, which are predominantly graphic based 2) public information signs. Eg no smoking. Also usually picture based albeit does often contain text instruction as well 3) beach flags indicating where to swim etc. All of thes…

Right, note that in communication referring to written laws, people tend to use visual aids. This is also similar to how people try to visualize source code, like dependency graphs, inheritance graphs and such. In one case, we are reminding one about ideas using visuals and the other, we are helping comprehension of it.

However, the original specification, which in the case of the signs are laws and for software is code, is text, not in visuals. There in lies the difference. I think visual aids like dependency graphs will help us visualize code and communicate ideas like in the signs you mention, but due to the reasons I mentioned previously text will still be the preferred method for specification, or in software engineering, programming. For example, visuals only go so far. The best visual specifications I can think of are blueprints, which I'd argue still require a little of reading to understand. But in certain domains, as I said, text is a better medium.

Re: The future is fewer people writing code?

#252
post #6

“50 years from now, I can’t imagine people programming as we do today. It just can’t be." Dear writer, let me introduce you to FORTRAN, COBOL, LISP, or BASIC. These are alive languages, all 50+ years old. Coding didn't change much. The languages, the methodologies, the ideas change, but the approach is the same, and whoever thinks this will soon (50 years is not _that_ far) changes, have never had to debug something…

> Coding didn't change much.

That's not true and even Sussman acknowledges this:

"The fundamental difference is that programming today is all about doing science on the parts you have to work with. That means looking at reams and reams of man pages and determining that POSIX does this thing, but Windows does this other thing, and patching together the disparate parts to make a usable whole.

Beyond that, the world is messier in general. There’s massive amounts of data floating around, and the kinds of problems that we’re trying to solve are much sloppier, and the solutions a lot less discrete than they used to be."

Re: The future is fewer people writing code?

#253
post #205
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept of what change is more or less significant can be pretty subjective. I'm not talking about things like fuel efficiency, although those are some really interesting facts. Autopilot in 1947! didn't know that one. Yes, cars and jets still use the same basic architecture for what makes them move, but the control mechanisms for that architecture have completely changed. To bring your comparison closer to the s…

"Now you download Unity and almost everything but the art design and game logic is done for you." Yes, Unity helps to visually organize your game's data, and there are built in and downloadable components (which are all created by coders) that can be used to plug into your game, but it's just another set of abstractions. Most of the time you will be writing your own components in a traditional coding language or delv…

I think we'll reach that point in 50 years because we already have computers with certain types of intelligence that exceed ours. Translating a human intent into machine language does work with coding, but we have to admit that it's not ideal. There are too many mistakes and vulnerabilities. Even the smartest people create bugs.

This like the shift in transportation. A lot of people love driving and mistrust autonomous vehicles. But the tech is almost to the point where it's safer than human drivers. In most situations, it already is.

Another comparison would be SaaS. For a lot of companies, it's about risk mitigation. Moving responsibilities away from internal staff makes business sense in many cases.

This is a criticism of the idea that we need to make coding a basic life skill that everyone should focus on. It looks a lot like denial to some people.

Let's go back to transportation. Imagine if people were pushing the idea that commercial driving needs to be in every high school because driving was such a big employment area. Some people might say that the autonomous vehicles look like a big threat to job prospects, so maybe it's not such a good idea to focus on those particular skills.

Coding is great, provides a lot of opportunities to the people that it attracts, but it's a pretty specialized skill that's going to be increasingly displaced by more natural and automatic interfaces this century in all likelihood.

Re: The future is fewer people writing code?

#254
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interesting angle on the topic comes from my father who at one time was a project manager and designer in the construction industry. In the days before computers he would painstakingly hand-draw the design that was reproduced as blueprints, that was the role of the "draftsman". But the drawing wasn't the source of stress, rather it was the project "specification" that he sweated. The issue was the spec was a legal…

I work in the same construction design industry. The drawings themselves are also contractually binding. Many smaller jobs forgo the written specifications altogether.

My father had mostly worked on larger projects, like tract houses and the like. Of course, times change, my recollection was of how things were a long time ago. My comment was just illustrating an instance where relying on a text description was still important even though there was a graphic format as well.

Your info was relevant to the idea of that at some level of complexity it becomes necessary to use text vs. only graphic presentation. Maybe in construction that occurs when there are more than a few elevations to juggle, but you probably know much more about it than me.

Re: The future is fewer people writing code?

#255
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you had a blueprint of the whole of NewYork city, you surely would need some tool to abstract away the maze of individual lines and be able to refer-to/work-with concepts like "Central Park", "the Harlem", or "Brooklyn Bridge". It is not about how much more information can we convey, but how much less data must be expended to present a tractable model of reality to the human operator. Conveying more details is wor…

Of course, there's the ability to zoom and pan to get the appropriate level of detail. There's a reason Google Maps isn't a text adventure.

In Google Maps, the ability to zoom relies heavily in a (unacknowledged) property of the problem domain: planar geometry. If every relevant detail is nicely clustered together and, more importantly, every irrelevant detail is nicely clustered far away from wherever you are zoomming-in, then sure!

If, on the other hand, you cannot ever be 100% sure that fixing one stop light in Brooklyn will cause a bunch sewage lines to flush out to the street in Long Island, then zooming does more harm than good. At the end of day, you need the map to conform to the realities of the territory. If that gets in the way of that pretty abstraction of yours, then the abstraction - not reality - is wrong. And when that is the case, you need to start over and make a better map.

Text based toolchains are, for all their limitations, a (sufficiently) reality conformant map. It does not mean there cannot be others; but as of today I do not know about any suitable candidate.

Re: The future is fewer people writing code?

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the author was saying something different, with which I agree. There's a POV from which code is the details needed to get something done, and the less, the better. In my life, the less visible the code task has become, the more power I've gained. A couple of examples: When word processors stopped needing to be told stuff like /b at the beginning and end of words I wanted boldfaced, it got better. I found the…

This is a strawman. Coding has never been a prerequisite to creation. People were creative forever, and then computers came along and created new avenues for creativity. The vast majority of which is done with applications , and applications have improved by leaps and bounds every decade. Only a very tiny portion of creative work requires actual programming, like demo scene programmers. Even video games and Pixar mov…

I appreciate the thoughtful reply, thank you. But it's not a strawman. That's when you advance an argument that wasn't at issue.

I supported the article's thesis, that fewer people will be coding in the future, and provided a couple of anecdata points from my experience. I don't think code is unnecessary magic to be done away with. It's essential magic that becomes invisible when done well, to everyone's benefit.

And to clarify, creative work isn't limited to the arts. The creative impulse is common and has multiple outlets. Engineering is every bit as creative as portraiture or sculpture or crafting LOTR on a ginormous graphics processor farm.

My observation is that as the need for coding has decreased due in large part to increased computational sophistication, it's gotten easier for a wider range of people to do contributive work.

Suppose you have something to say about climate change. If you need to model it, you have several global models you can run, without having to code FEA and planetary atmospheric physics from scratch.

Or pick an artistic field - I know a hand weaver who uses commercial software to visualize her designs before she heads off to her hand loom. She'll never code a simple if/then/else statement, but the (invisible to her) code in the app lets her do things she'd never have time or resources to try otherwise.

Even in your medical example - I'll guess that fewer than 2% of the surgeons who use a Da Vinci medical robot could do anything useful with the code that runs that system. And if learning to code the robot were a prerequisite to using it, it would be a failed product.

I like your thought of a device for home appendectomy. Why not, really? Ultrasound imaging, vital signs sensing, actuators for retractors, scalpels...and lots of invisible code to make it work well. Just the thing for clinics in parts of the world where there is appendicitis but no doctors.

Code may not be designed to obfuscate, but it does that to many who would otherwise be able to use computation to do something new and useful. I think the more sophisticated code becomes, the less it will be a critical skill for most people. Which is good. We'll be free to figure out the next important thing and work on making it trivial.

Post reply on HN