TTIP Leaks • Hacker News Board

Re: TTIP Leaks

#251

Post by PavlovsCat » Tue, May 03, 2016, 6:11 AM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #249

PavlovsCat wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The baseline isn't even worse stuff, the baseline is decency.

I tend to be a bit more pragmatic. The human race is composed of neither angels nor devils: but humans. Beings with flawed and incomplete morality. Its best if we judge ourselves by comparing against the actions of our fathers, otherwise we may lose ourselves in idealism. The claim after all, is that the current time is the most prosperous and peaceful time of all of human existence. And as far as I can tell, actual…

> Its best if we judge ourselves by comparing against the actions of our fathers, otherwise we may lose ourselves in idealism.

Honesty and decency existed thousands of years ago, too, "our fathers" aren't a monolith, just like the present isn't. But more importantly, I say including 10 different versions of jQuery on one page to color 10 letters makes it load needlessly slow, and you say that's still faster than usenet in the 80s -- if you know what I mean? It is both technically true and completely besides the point.

> The claim after all, is that the current time is the most prosperous and peaceful time of all of human existence.

Nope. The claim was that this is because of countries wanting to dominate each other. I say it's despite of that.

> You may be worried about a few thousand innocent deaths here and there, but again, that number is much much MUCH much smaller than the historical norm.

It's also a rather simplicistic metric. We consider murder bad because it doesn't allow the murdered people to live their lives, right? To develop freely as a person, and whatnot? Well, there's a problem:

> "it's not possible to be fully human if you are being surveilled 24/7"

[ http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20130818120421175 ]

The same goes for other things. People are getting fucked in so many ways with it's not really the opposite of murder, but its sibling. And open murder evokes criticism and resistance, while "pumping every home full of sleeping gas" (to paraphrase the lyrics to Bullet In The Head by RATM) works much better.

> I am peace-loving and idealistic enough that I believe we should open up our country to these people, despite the risks.

Call me when you're willing to get war criminals arrested and tried, and I mean American/Western ones. And let's talk about how peaceful the world has become after the wars/genocides over oil and water are over. You know, the ones we do nothing serious to avoid steering into, because we're too busy dominating each other, building little fortresses and kicking away the ladder? The gap between rich and poor is growing, not shrinking. You can't say by the standards of 1900, people today are better off. Well you can, but I can't take it seriously. By the standards of 2016 -- the ones that matter -- many people are worse off. As Stephen Hawking wrote:

> If machines produce everything we need, the outcome will depend on how things are distributed. Everyone can enjoy a life of luxurious leisure if the machine-produced wealth is shared, or most people can end up miserably poor if the machine-owners successfully lobby against wealth redistribution. So far, the trend seems to be toward the second option, with technology driving ever-increasing inequality.

( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/3nyn5i/science_ama... )

Re: TTIP Leaks

#252

Post by shard972 » Tue, May 03, 2016, 6:36 AM UTC

tommyman wrote: post #9

So business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in the US side of negotiations (far more than any public interest groups). Then on the EU side, business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in negotiations to the detriment of all public groups. So this is really lots of big US companies negotiating with themselves on ho…

I don't know why anyone would be surprised. Victoria Nuland said it herself: "Fuck the EU".

The US wants to screw over the EU, not help them. The quicker the EU realizes this the better.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#253

Post by f1hybrid » Tue, May 03, 2016, 6:39 AM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #224

simonb wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one, suicide rates in the developed world are on the rise: http://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

But this might be caused by all sorts of things. More people rejecting (or being more "moderate" in) religion, for instance. Or more people being able to get a more accurate view of the world. Or social acceptability changing. Doesn't seem fair to look at overall statistics for peace and prosperity, then say "well that doesn't really count".

If there is a rise in the curve of suicides caused by more people having an accurate view of the world, a realisation that causes them to take their own lives, I'm sure the solution is not to try to get people to believe in something that is false.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#254

Post by riffraff » Tue, May 03, 2016, 7:59 AM UTC

richmarr wrote: post #84

jcfrei wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, just to be clear: I'm not an advocate for TTIP.

Not sure where you're from, but it's hard to imagine a rational basis for the European public to be an advocate of it. My understanding of TTIP and TPP are that they're the US's last ditch attempt to standardise international trade along US lines before China overtakes and starts to set the tone. On that basis they kinda make sense from a US perspective. From an EU perspective not so much. (edit: not saying the US ha…

> Not sure where you're from, but it's hard to imagine a rational basis for the European public to be an advocate of it.

Confindustria (the italian confederation of industrial companies) is strongly in favour of TTIP. Spirits exported to the US for example are heavily taxed, if they were not, we'd likely export more.

Or, if we get geographic denominations protection, we can get walmart to stop producing 40 things called "asiago" or "parmesan" (as it happened for german produced parmesan, or in reverse for the italian Tocai wine which clashed with hungarian Tokaji) and than it's a win for the producers of the real stuff.

Moreover in some things the US has _better_ legislation than europe, for example "bio" regulation is more strict, as are car safety rules, AFAIK.

I am not saying this will work out for the best, I am saying there are supporters of TTIP on the european side too.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#255

Post by rorykoehler » Tue, May 03, 2016, 8:02 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #122

switch007 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every internal combustion engine in history has and will spew poison in to the air. You just thought it was slightly less than it actually was.

Ever considered that internal combustion engines actually also saved lives (and made life possible in places where it was not) ? Let's not paint the world black and white.

Hard drugs make the pain go away but they also slowly kill you.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#256

Post by mineshaftgap » Tue, May 03, 2016, 10:23 AM UTC

tommyman wrote: post #226

JPKab wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So this is really lots of big US companies negotiating with themselves on how to screw over Europe." Let me change this for you to something more accurate: So this is really lots of big multinational corporations negotiating with themselves on how to screw over working people throughout the world. When you start tuning this into "US companies screwing over Europe", you play right into their hands. As if there aren't…

Its both. Americans appear to have either give up years ago or agree with their representatives actions. Divided and conquered by squabbling over dem/rep smoke screens. Europeans have fought harder to win and keep better social conditions, work conditions, health conditions, consumer protections, monopoly protection (great internets), environmental protection laws. If you and a western european work same job for same…

Europe is going to have to realize that all their problems are not because of the Americans. Actually Europe is freeloading off the US on defense and that is going to end. These trade bills are going to fail and the US will negotiate better deals for us separately.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#257

Post by noauth » Tue, May 03, 2016, 11:48 AM UTC

pmontra wrote: post #69

mark_l_watson wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I was not surprised that President Obama waded in on the British EU exit referendum. This issue is not of much importance to US citizens, but it is very important to the one world government movement. Off topic, but: I find it sad but amusing when my friends argue about democrats vs. republicans; both parties serve their 'people', the corporations.

I was surprised because it goes against the principle of divide et impera. Apparently a divided Europe makes it easier for the USA and China to do whatever they want, and Russia too. Unless the EU with a skeptical UK is worse off than without it. But I see your point. It's not American interests against European ones. It's to prevent a secession in a geographical space more and more dominated by some corporations and…

You can divide people across class lines, religion, geography, political orientation etc. States are just one way but not the only one.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#258

Post by tazjin » Tue, May 03, 2016, 12:16 PM UTC

Grishnakh wrote: post #212

tazjin wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump and Clinton are the only remaining candidates, and Clinton is flip-flopping on the issue depending on who she's talking to. She only recently did an anti-TPP U-turn - who knows what she stands for after being elected. Fortunately for us she won't be elected though!

Are you kidding? It's quite likely she'll be elected. Her unfavorability rating from polls is very high, but Trump's is even higher. I'm not sure how Cruz's compared, but it's way up there too. The only guy who has a low unfavorability rating is Bernie, and it looks pretty certain that he's not getting the nomination nor running as an independent. What's going to happen with this election is anyone's guess IMO. It co…

I'm not kidding. Unfavourability ratings don't decide elections (look at some historical ratings of previous presidents).

Trump and Clinton have been tied in national polls recently (there was even an outlier showing +3 Trump) and this is before he has started attacking her and before any debates. She's going down.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#259

Post by tacos » Tue, May 03, 2016, 12:42 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #250

tacos wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes. Wake up a few extra hours before sunrise to load crisp, clean-burning coal into a furnace. Then fiddle with dials waiting for it to come up to pressure without exploding. Then drag a cast iron boiler and tons of water (!) on tiny wheels across muddy fields, generating 15 horsepower. Built to scale!

generating 15 horsepower You don't need a lot of horsepower to replace a horse. Quite literally, one would be enough.

In the spring you have a specific number of weeks to prep and plant. The amount of food you can produce is directly tied to the horsepower you can apply. It's also the difference between spending 15 hours a day in the field versus 8.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#260

Post by tajen » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:46 PM UTC

levemi wrote: post #189

tajen wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I need help in argumenting: What's the difference between the EU-US WTO agreements and the TTIP, apart from the former being from the XXth century. Aren't we happier and wealthier since the WTO exists? Please don't tell me about how a treaty should be voted on by the people, because I already agree about this part.

> Please don't tell me about how a treaty should be voted on by the people, because I already agree about this part. Direct democracy in diplomacy and trade negotiation sounds like a really terrible idea. It would just be constant protectionism, xenophobia and probably ruin economic growth and everyone will be the worse of for it. Sometimes giving more people a voice does not result in positive outcomes.

That's the difference between signing and ratifying. There's a story that USA's Congress never ratified the end of the war with Europe. A lot of countries voted No to the European referendum. Most of them voted Yes. Ultimately, the citizen should decide when they give up power, and they must repeat it regularly.