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Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

theatlantic.com

251–260 of 268 posts

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#251
post #250
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had it in the Wikipedia article linked by the op. Edit... anyway: De Lezo took part in the Spanish Sucession War. In that war, Catalonia lost some fueros (middle ages common law) because it was against the Borbons (that won) and in the revisionist version of history that we're hearing in very recent years, that's tantamount to genocide.

Thanks, that was the explanation you could have given several posts ago. While skimming the Wikipedia article, I noted that he got a statue in Madrid, then skipped the rest of that paragraph, which was the only one that hinted at this controversy, and even then did not give the reason you give here. Please excuse us for not following the Spanish news so closely, and then downvoting you for your sheer arrogance.

My sheer arrogance considers you excused.

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#252
post #235
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My other objection is that Boaty McBoatface, somehow represents the will of the people. No it doesn't. It represent the will of people who bothered to vote on an issue most people likely don't give a dam about. If a choice was demanded of the whole population then Boaty McBoatface would never have won. This can be said about the election in pretty much all western societies. There have been several occasions where…

I agree with the Australian way, so long as there is an option for "Nobody".

There is not I'm afraid, you have to mark the ballot paper. So the way round it is to mark the paper outside of the boxes, thus making it an invalid vote.

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#253
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

States could probably change the 2 party system by eliminating the preferential access that the parties have to the ballot. Imagine if the national conventions were deciding which of the many already balloted candidates to endorse, rather than a media circus driving national attention to a smaller and smaller number of candidates that are then placed on state ballots by the parties months after an independent would h…

Why would any Democrat or Republican candidate prefer that process over the party process?

Yes, exactly. They prefer the party process because it gives them an advantage. We should take that advantage away from them.

(In many places ballot initiatives could be used to work around insider resistance to such a change)

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#254
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep contesting the outcome".

Let's not kid ourselves... Democracy is no perfect ideal to aspire after. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

Let's also consider what Bastiat had to say[1]:

    What, then, is law? It is the collective organization 
    of the individual right to lawful defense.

    Each of us has a natural right — from God — to defend 
    his person, his liberty, and his property. These are 
    the three basic requirements of life, and the 
    preservation of any one of them is completely dependent 
    upon the preservation of the other two. For what are 
    our faculties but the extension of our individuality? 
    And what is property but an extension of our faculties? 
    If every person has the right to defend even by force — 
    his person, his liberty, and his property, then it 
    follows that a group of men have the right to organize 
    and support a common force to protect these rights 
    constantly. Thus the principle of collective right — 
    its reason for existing, its lawfulness — is based on 
    individual right. And the common force that protects 
    this collective right cannot logically have any other 
    purpose or any other mission than that for which it 
    acts as a substitute. Thus, since an individual cannot 
    lawfully use force against the person, liberty, or 
    property of another individual, then the common force — 
    for the same reason — cannot lawfully be used to 
    destroy the person, liberty, or property of individuals 
    or groups.

    Such a perversion of force would be, in both cases, 
    contrary to our premise. Force has been given to us to 
    defend our own individual rights. Who will dare to say 
    that force has been given to us to destroy the equal 
    rights of our brothers? Since no individual acting 
    separately can lawfully use force to destroy the rights 
    of others, does it not logically follow that the same 
    principle also applies to the common force that is 
    nothing more than the organized combination of the 
    individual forces?

    If this is true, then nothing can be more evident than 
    this: The law is the organization of the natural right 
    of lawful defense. It is the substitution of a common 
    force for individual forces. And this common force is 
    to do only what the individual forces have a natural 
    and lawful right to do: to protect persons, liberties, 
    and properties; to maintain the right of each, and to 
    cause justice to reign over us all.
Now I don't agree with his appeal to "God" as the justification for the inherent nature of the right to self-defense, but his basic argument is sound.

[1]: http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html#SECTION_G004

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#255

I don't agree with a lot of the conclusions of this article. E.g. they propose that voting "probably" works the same way in all other countries as the US. There are plenty of objections to be made against that. E.g. 1) the US being a two party state means that getting representatives which represents the great variety of voter opinions is exceedingly difficult. 2) US elections are so dominated by advertisement, expen…

I don't really agree with the article either, but for different reasons. Voting is to democracy as is telescopes is to astronomy. Democracy is about the people being in charge, of the government existing for the benefit of the people (as opposed to a dictator/absolute monarch/aristocracy) on the broadest possible stretches. It's about replacing the people in charge peacefully every few years. It's not about every dec…

Voting for public offices is actually undemocratic. This was already know to the ancient greek:

"It is accepted as democratic when public offices are allocated by lot; and as oligarchic when they are filled by election." (Aristotle)

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#256
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the boat isn't to be a Budgie the Helicopter style cash machine, is it? It has a serious purpose. Why does it have to appeal to 4 year olds, who have zero understanding of or interest in what it does? Why does it require an infantile name to appeal to kids who are old enough to be interested in what it does? The only reason this is even any kind of issue is because of the way internet works, where all ki…

> Why does it have to appeal to 4 year olds, who have zero understanding of or interest in what it does? You realise that those 4 year olds grow up right? And that by possibly catching their attention and imagination at an early age it might even make them more interested in the area and maybe, gosh, make them want to become researchers and scientists when they grow up and tackle issues like climate change. And the v…

> You realise that those 4 year olds grow up right?

No, I didn't realize that 4 year olds grow up. Thank you for clearing that up.

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#257
What an idiotic article. "Democracy doesn't work. " So the authors wouldn't mind if the US became a dictatorship?

One reason that democracy works vastly better than authoritarian government is that the public agrees on a lot of things. For instance, the public in the US disapproves of governmental corruption, and so it is far lower than in authoritarian countries like Putin's Russia.

Oh, and if the authors think that informing the public doesn't work, then why are they working for a media organization is, guess what, informing the public?

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#258

I don't agree with a lot of the conclusions of this article. E.g. they propose that voting "probably" works the same way in all other countries as the US. There are plenty of objections to be made against that. E.g. 1) the US being a two party state means that getting representatives which represents the great variety of voter opinions is exceedingly difficult. 2) US elections are so dominated by advertisement, expen…

> getting representatives which represents the great variety of voter opinions

The parties in the US don't control the opinions and seats of their elected members, which means you get a greater variety of political positions under the same label than you do in a lot of parliamentary systems. Republicans in California can easily be left of Democrats in Georgia.[0]

There are opinions held by small interest groups that are not reflected in the democratic process, to be sure.

On the other hand, performing artists have their own line in the tax code, so sometimes these groups do get their way.

> US elections are so dominated by advertisement, expensive campaigns and donations that there is no way a politician can actually do what they tell voters because at the end of the day they have to satisfy donors

A lot of studies have debunked the influence of money on campaigns.[1]

Jeb's massive war chest didn't keep him in the race.

Here are the richest individuals to ever launch a bid for the presidency[2]:

1) Ross Perot

2) Steve Forbes

3) John Kerry

4) Mitt Romney

5) Al Gore

The Clintons are next, but most of their money was made after Bill's Presidency.

Giuliani, Edwards, and Huntsman round out the list (before this election, I'm not sure if anyone really knows how much Trump is worth).

A lot of losers on that list for a system so influenced by money.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zell_Miller

[1] http://freakonomics.com/2012/01/17/how-much-does-campaign-sp...

[2] http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ross-perot-tops-lis...

Re: Boaty McBoatface and the False Promise of Democracy

#260
The UK Gov't really doesn't get it. Just imagine the marketing and sales opportunity for a Kids Television Show about Boaty McBoatface, the Research Vessel.

Or how about toys, educational videos, educational cartoons, educational books featuring Boaty McBoatface and friends.

This is a Scientific Research Vessel that people could really fall in love with, and instead of capitalizing on that possibility, they'll give it a name like the Hawking. Nothing against Hawking.

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