Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

spectrum.ieee.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 428 posts

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#251

Post by jerrysievert »

ryandrake wrote: post #138
SilasX wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And learn how to job search. There's surely a better job that guy could have found.

I think you're forgetting what the early 2000's were like for software developers.

i worked at the Open Source Development Lab 2001-2002, and left for the same reasons everyone else who had been there left - after walking out of that job, i spent 1 year unemployed in portland until taking a high level software engineering job for much less money.

would i have made the same decision? no, i wouldn't have worked at the OSDL and would have preferred to burn out at another dotcom, but it did teach me how to live very frugally, and how to set money aside for rainy days.

now i try to keep at least a year's worth of living expenses, preferably 2-3, just to make sure i can survive the next one.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#252

Post by mikeyouse »

chrisper wrote: post #86
mwnz wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think H1B employees are paid lower salaries? And what long-term liabilities are you referring to?

Because those people don't understand that the "lower salary" H1B people come from consulting sweatshops like Tata.

IBM pays H1Bs dramatically less than their peer companies, and recruits far more H1Bs.. They're terrible;

http://i.imgur.com/hkKLLR2.png

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#254

Post by dredmorbius »

ransom1538 wrote: post #219
dredmorbius wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Among other factors mentioned: employer-specific skillsets. Technology jobs are very highly specialised. And I'm not just speaking of computer tech. I'm old enough to have seen several generations of obsoleted "gold tickets". Nuclear Engineering, future destroyed March 28, 1979. Freeway engineers, the freeway protests of the 1960s/1970s. Big Three auto manufacturers, dream destroyed with the first oil embargo, and su…

Regarding skill sets. I have only been in software 12 years or so, but I noticed a type of tech 'gamble'. Basically, when you decided to learn something in tech you are basically gambling that the tech will last. In 2007 many faced a simple decision: AS3 or iOS. Supposed you chose AS3. Then, worked on it from 2009-2012, quite profitably. Currently the AS3 job outlook is horrific, and all that knowledge is a waste. No…

Quite. I like the "Tech Gamble" concept. May well borrow that.

This also reminds me of a back-rationalisation I've seen for Linux adopting the penguin as mascot -- not the Australian zoo killer penguin story.

Antarctic penguins, when deciding where and when to enter the water mill about on the edge of the ice. The problem is that the first one in is taking a significant risk -- leopard seals, which eat penguins, may be lurking.

But once the brave pioneer takes the plunge (or rather more likely, is pushed, jostled, or slips in), the rest of the flock follows. There's safety in numbers ... and fish to eat.

I see parallels with techies choosing skillsets.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#255

Post by JupiterMoon »

SilasX wrote: post #247
acdha wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other people have pointed out how rough the period around 2000 was but it's also worth looking at how similar things were the previous time that'd happened in the early 90s when the defense contractors laid off a ton of engineers as the Cold War died down. That meant that you had large numbers of people with similar backgrounds all on the job market, in the same areas at the same time, competing for a sharply reduced…

A lot of people are responding with historical examples of qualified people unable to find jobs, but I think that strengthens my point. If you can do aircraft stress analysis, you're qualified to do a whole host of technical jobs with very little retraining; it's just a matter of finding those who are willing to take a chance. You don't have to wait for another stress analysis job.

No, your point is flawed and has no basis in reality. If many (read 10k-1000k order of magnitude depending on location size) skilled engineers are fired at the same time then things get really bad for engineers.

* All the companies than need any engineering based work done can take their pick of the best.

* But remember their normal recruitment channels are still open and feeding potential employees through. They may prefer to hire fresh talent rather than a 50 year old.

* And other engineering companies will be affected. If your aircraft company lays off 30% of its employees then it probably does so because it has less orders on its books. Therefore the smaller companies making parts for the aerospace industry have less orders and will be firing rather than hiring.

* Even worse large job losses tend to be correlated with a generalised or sector wide downturn. So car companies and ship companies and bridge companies may also be in a situation where there is less demand and be firing rather than hiring.

* The local economies of the places where the engineers were fired from will be affected. Skilled workers tend to support several service workers and when the skilled workers are laid off the service sectors are affected (you don't go out to a restaurant or get your house done up if you've just lost your job).

* If people move away from towns/cities due to lost work then the property prices tend to fall. A family with a mortgage may be (or feel that they are) better off holding onto their home and accepting much lower pay than accepting they have lost several $100,000 on the re-sale price of their home.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#256

Post by dredmorbius »

hga wrote: post #232
acdha wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other people have pointed out how rough the period around 2000 was but it's also worth looking at how similar things were the previous time that'd happened in the early 90s when the defense contractors laid off a ton of engineers as the Cold War died down. That meant that you had large numbers of people with similar backgrounds all on the job market, in the same areas at the same time, competing for a sharply reduced…

And that's wasn't the first Cold War related layoff period, we largely stopped fighting it in the '70s (roughly "Vietnam" through when the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan gave Carter a clue), and between that and the end of the Apollo program aerospace crashed and never returned to its old level. My family hired an EE to do electrical engineering in ~1972 and he was thrilled to be able to get back to it after doing al…

Interesting. So this crash happened before the oil embargo (fall, 1973)?

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#257

Post by dredmorbius »

rayiner wrote: post #155
IndianAstronaut wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I think learning new marketable skills should be everyone's hobby. Also, in our field or any professional field, you really should be very financially secure after 50 so that a job loss doesn't hurt you.

Software is highly unusual in that you can learn marketable skills as a hobby. It's not like a chemical engineer can learn marketable skills in civil engineering on the side. And not everyone can do software for a living.

There is that advantage, though some skills are harder to pick up (stuff relating to hardware, commercial software packages, etc.). This also means more competition as there are fewer barriers to entry.

But generally, I see it as an advantage.

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#258

Post by dredmorbius »

Devthrowaway80 wrote: post #230
dredmorbius wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hindsight, 20/20, and all that. It's really, really easy to think you're one of God's Chosen (or Allahs, or Jehovas, or Buddha's, or ...) when you're at the top of the world, you've got a multi-trillion-dollar wind in your sails, you went to the best schools, and you make titanium and airaluminium dance on the wind and all that. 1980s aerospace engineers weren't the first to take that tumble. They won't be the last.

> It's really, really easy to think you're one of God's Chosen (or Allahs, or Jehovas, or Buddha's, or ...) when you're at the top of the world, you've got a multi-trillion-dollar wind in your sails, you went to the best schools, and you make titanium and airaluminium dance on the wind and all that. Fortunately nobody posting on Hacker News threads like these are relatively new engineers who think they're God's gift!

We should count our blessings!

Re: Reports Coming in of Big IBM Layoffs Underway in the U.S.

#260

Post by dang »

pyre wrote: post #224
patrickaljord wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People probably don't use it because at every English school in non English-speaking countries, they teach you that "they" is for plural only. I had personally never heard until recently that "they" could be singular too. It also really sounds weird to a French like me.

I grew up in the US, and I still think that singular "they" is weird. I remember thinking that it was weird in grade school, and wishing that there was a better gender-neutral pronoun. Part of the problem with it being used in singular and plural context is that it's possible to use it in an ambiguous way where the ambiguity comes from the lack of enough context to differentiate between plural or singular. Separate w…

It's weird in theory but not in practice. Listen closely and you'll find that every every English speaker uses it without thinking.
Post reply on HN