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Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

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Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#251

Post by Tenhundfeld »

iolothebard wrote: post #196
talles wrote: post #190

> By contrast, there has been a near tripling of American deaths from heroin overdoses between 2010 and 2013, even though the law and its severe punishments remain unchanged. But why heroin usage has raised? I have read an (very convincing) argument that heroin usage is increasing due to the marijuana legalization. And no, it's not the typical "marijuana is a door the heavier drugs" thing, is merely supply and demand…

Making Oxycontin harder to get is why. Also people trying to get clean, then going back to doing their "old" dose.

Yes, exactly, on both points.

According to the CDC, opioid painkillers addicts are 40 times more likely to be addicted to heroin than general population. “Most heroin users have a history of nonmedical use of prescription opioid pain relievers, and an increase in the rate of heroin overdose deaths has occurred concurrently with an epidemic of prescription opioid overdoses."

I can't say opioid painkillers are the only reason, but the experts seem to agree they're, at least, a major contributing factor.

I was listening to a social worker discuss the problem recently. His experience was that most new heroin addicts started on opioid painkillers, often with legitimate prescriptions, and weren't hard drug users previously. When their doctor refused to prescribe more painkillers (or the pills they were stealing from mom ran out, etc.), they turned to the black market, where it's much easier to obtain heroin than painkillers. He estimated 90% of his cases fit this pattern of prescription drugs being the gateway to heroin.

This same guy also discussed how a lot of overdoses he saw were from recovered heroin addicts that relapsed after being prescribed an opioid painkiller for a legitimate need, e.g., after an injury. As you say, they went back to their "old dose," without realizing a) their tolerance was lower and b) black market heroin is typically much better quality and a wider range of qualities these days. In the 80's (and 90's I think) heroin was usually Another factor I've read, can't remember where, is that the higher quality heroin has made snorting it more feasible. So, that reduces some of the stigma/ickiness associated with needles, trackmarks, etc., increasing the pool of people who'll try it. And it can be easier to overdose via snorting, because it takes several minutes to feel the full effects, unlike injecting.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#253

Post by zanny »

magicGLASSman wrote: post #235
mikeash wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that there may be policies which work well if the population participates in them consistently, but which fall apart if everybody gets to pick and choose. The whole point of government is to do these things.

But if most the people agree that the policies are good and best combination of all the other states wouldn't they pay those taxes voluntarily instead of having to be coursed into paying? That is democracy right? otherwise it seems kinda selective as to whose votes mater the most.

Wealth inequality is the perfect example. It is in the best interests of society to keep inequality under control - extreme inequality, like we have today, has negative social and economic implications. But if you are on top, with all the money in the world, why would you ever voluntarily give your money away?

Like the other response said, its prisoners dilemma. It is in the best interests of the rich to pay for honestly a majority stake in the society because they are the ones prospering the most from it. But if any one person of the ownership class can avoid paying, they have an incredible competitive advantage over their peers they will obviously exploit.

Independently, it is never in your best interests to give your money away in taxes. It is always in your best interests to have everyone else pay them but you.

This is why you cannot test any number of policies - basic income, progressive taxation, universal healthcare, amongst many more - because if you are not getting more out of these policies than you put in you have the instant ability to flee from paying for them.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#254

Post by MrMullen »

hobs wrote: post #182
rangibaby wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan has low crime rates because there is no visible underclass like blacks in America or immigrants in Europe. There are drugs that are partly or fully banned in other countries that are freely prescribed here (rohypnol, for example). Mushrooms weren't banned at all until recently. An ex's brother was prosecuted for weed but let off after paying a fine. Another guy I knew who sold was let off in exchange for his ce…

I havent been to Japan, but what about the Burakumin and the Ainu? Didnt Japan pass a law to stop discriminating against the Ainu at one point?

There are hardly any pure Ainu anymore and they did not rebel against Japanese culture when they were discriminated against. Burakumin is more of a "They work in the wrong business" discrimination and is not based on skin color or a look. Burakumin tend to be Japanese in the Japanese culture and are not really outsiders.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#255

Post by gedy »

_yosefk wrote: post #129
Synaesthesia wrote: post #41

The drug problem was studied years ago by the RAND corporation and the US Military - a pure cost-benefit analysis. They found that treatment and education are the most cost effective way to deal with the drug problem, and that prohibition was the most costly and ineffective means of dealing with it. Therefore the government understands that the war on drugs is likely to be unsuccessful, and we have to ask ourselves,…

My favorite conspiracy theory regarding drug legalization is, "the rich" will want to legalize drugs to get rid of "the poor" on the theory that people who've been put out of work by machines are an unnecessary burden, and that widespread use of drugs among such people is a good way to reduce their numbers. (I don't quite "believe" this theory in the sense of imagining a bunch of rich people sitting in a room, conspi…

Interesting theory, but for pacification, not elimination.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#256

Post by maxxxxx »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #41

The drug problem was studied years ago by the RAND corporation and the US Military - a pure cost-benefit analysis. They found that treatment and education are the most cost effective way to deal with the drug problem, and that prohibition was the most costly and ineffective means of dealing with it. Therefore the government understands that the war on drugs is likely to be unsuccessful, and we have to ask ourselves,…

A lot of people in law enforcement, prisons, CIA and defense industry probably also did a cost-benefit analysis and found that prohibition is a very effective way to keep their jobs.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#257

Post by michaelbuddy »

DanBC wrote: post #232
rayiner wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're ignoring a morally significant dimension to the problem. Nobody becomes a drug addict by accident. They choose to do drugs and take the risk not just of bodily harm, but of becoming unable to support their families and becoming a burden on society. And your suggestion is that society should spend money to treat them of an illness that was their fault to begin with. I happen to agree with you that treatment, no…

There is considerable overlap between people who've experienced abuse and people who are addicted to drugs. In that light your comments about "they chose to do it" are horrible. People are self-medicating to relieve trauma. It might not be an effective way to relieve trauma, but given the piss-poor state of psychological treatment or judicial system for survivors of abuse it's not surprising people end up with sub-op…

The comments were horrible? I don't think so. There are also a lot of selfish people using drugs who screw others over at every turn. And you can't ignore that fact. A lot of people need to hit bottom in the process to recovery so you can't just give them the "victim" label either, it's about personal responsibility as well for MANY people. I'm not discounting abuse or whatever happenstance, but some are just bad people and it's not "horrible" to consider the reality of what they've done. Because some perpetrators of violent crime were victims before, but they have responsibility towards awareness and however they learn to come to terms with it is on them, not us.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#258

Post by wfo »

rayiner wrote: post #239
gohrt wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it true that > The government persists with the drug war because Americans have a moral opposition to drug use: or > Americans have a moral opposition to drug use, because the government persists with the drug war ? Impressionable children are indoctrinated against drug use, by US law enforcement, in US public schools. > 70-80% of polled adults wanted to make even marijuana illegal. That's impossible, because mari…

> Impressionable children are indoctrinated against drug use, by US law enforcement, in US public schools. That's one theory, but it does not jive with the data. Millennials grew up with teachers shrieking "just say no!" at school assemblies. They were the most heavily propagandized generation with regards to the drug war. Much more so than their baby boomer teachers who grew up in the 1960's. Yet they're the ones le…

The propaganda was not particularly effective while aimed at children since its primary vehicle was tying opposition of drug use as a way to signal and support racism which was a particular societal trait the children had not yet learned. Opposition of drug use was a way to express racism without actually expressing it once it became taboo following the civil rights era.

The racism strategy was a much more powerful and effective tool for the older generation. There has been an attempt to continue to artificially associate drugs with other 'bad things' (terrorism, for example) now that associating something with black people isn't a guaranteed way to make people hate it, but success has been limited.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#259

Post by spacehome »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #41

The drug problem was studied years ago by the RAND corporation and the US Military - a pure cost-benefit analysis. They found that treatment and education are the most cost effective way to deal with the drug problem, and that prohibition was the most costly and ineffective means of dealing with it. Therefore the government understands that the war on drugs is likely to be unsuccessful, and we have to ask ourselves,…

> This is not a conspiracy

Of course it's a conspiracy.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conspiracy

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#260

Post by greggarious »

rayiner wrote: post #210
soneca wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The history said, in this case, that money and power did not win the dispute, not that their influence does not exist or should be considered negligible. So, if in the case of drugs, society moral standards, money and power are all at the same side; what's the chance of grassroot movement changing the laws? That question was not rethorical, but giving my own answer, I think the path is changing the perceptio…

You're ignoring a morally significant dimension to the problem. Nobody becomes a drug addict by accident. They choose to do drugs and take the risk not just of bodily harm, but of becoming unable to support their families and becoming a burden on society. And your suggestion is that society should spend money to treat them of an illness that was their fault to begin with. I happen to agree with you that treatment, no…

I was prescribed Xanax, for anxiety attacks. The doctor verbally said to take it as needed, but did not warn of addictive potential.

The bottle however, states to take 2x daily, no warning about addiction.

Luckily, I am educated and intelligent, so I avoid taking it unless absolutely necessary, and now go months without needing it.

I have friends who were not so lucky - they interpreted "as needed" as to mean "as the bottle says if I feel any tinge of axiety". They got addicted and at best, had to go through expensive rehab programs. At worst, they succumbed to depression and died from it.

Please, do tell more me how a PhD student who follows their doctor's instructions, assuming they are a fellow expert, should be judged as having a moral failure.

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