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SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

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251–260 of 515 posts

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#251
post #9

To play devil's advocate, he's right. He shouldn't have to see the pain, struggle, and despair of homeless - the city government should be providing affordable housing and shelters for the homeless. That it hasn't is a failure of the local government, and should be addressed. Much of the reason that affordable housing is out of reach of many in San Francisco is due to government regulation, not market capitalism. Ext…

I visited SF a few times, and I was always horrified to see how such a wealthy city leaves its homeless people to wander around, sleep in the cold and generally live in inhuman conditions. I won't claim I know enough about the city from two visits to propose any solutions, but I know that the fact that there are hundreds or thousands of people living like that is inexcusable. I've never seen this before to such exten…

2000 chronic homeless from what I have read. However, the city spends about $40000 per person that is not on the streets. A good article on the last 10 years or so: http://www.sfchronicle.com/archive/item/A-decade-of-homeless... 1 reason there are so many is probably because the city does try to help them and not abuse them like many cities. That and the mild weather...

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#252
post #9

To play devil's advocate, he's right. He shouldn't have to see the pain, struggle, and despair of homeless - the city government should be providing affordable housing and shelters for the homeless. That it hasn't is a failure of the local government, and should be addressed. Much of the reason that affordable housing is out of reach of many in San Francisco is due to government regulation, not market capitalism. Ext…

This is a complex issue... but in my experience, most of the homeless are not looking for help to find jobs and/or contribute to society in manner that will lead them out of "homelessness." A lot of them prefer this "lifestyle"... we try very hard to help the people that want help. Most don't. Go talk to your local EMS/Fire department personnel and most of them will have similar stories. I know the homeless people in…

> A lot of them prefer this "lifestyle"...

To the extent that's true, I suspect that says a lot more about the alternatives that they are presented with than anything else.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#253
Let's cut through the nonsense, and say what we're really talking about explicitly, and out loud: Is homelessness our responsibility, or not?

Some comments here use a lot of words to essentially say they don't feel any collective duty to help homeless people. Fine, if that's what you believe. But I'd ask you say that loud and clear, stand up and be judged.

Because I believe we collectively have a responsibility to each other, and government is one institution that reflects that responsibility (among its other roles). As a friend once said, simply: "I believe you can judge a society by how it treats its least-fortunate."

Now, the situation in SF is special; yes, it's got mild weather and a decent social safety net (by US standards, not European), which makes it a destination of sorts. But this is also why Justin K addressed his post to the wrong people: this isn't an SF issue, it's a state and national issue. And it's an issue that's heavily entangled with substance abuse and mental illness.[1]

And it's only made worse by bad behavior and bad politics. For example, Nevada bused mentally ill homeless people to SF (often without medication or any contact person):

http://www.sacbee.com/news/investigations/nevada-patient-bus...

The reason California in particular has such a large population of mentally ill homeless people is thanks to a few extra years of Reagan, who famously shuttered all the mental hospitals in California while governor (before defunding initiatives for mental health care and research at the federal level as president):

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/29/ronald_reagans_shameful_lega...

So, do you think this is all of our problems, or somehow this is an example of individual responsibility? I venture how you feel about that question is probably heavily correlated with whether you think success in business is a product of pure hard work, or if there's a contribution from luck and civil institutions. And this isn't some low-stakes game of political philosophizing; the policies that have exacerbated homelessness in SF and California in general are rooted in the same political philosophy that motivated this short-sighted, self-centered, fundamentally heartless post. Politics matter.

In other words: if you think like Justin that SF is 'ruined' for you by problems of homelessness, and the city should do more to fix it... then you're simply not thinking hard enough, and not taking responsibility for your role as a citizen of San Francisco, California, the US, and the world.

And as a Bay Area native and SF resident for 10 years, I'd kindly ask you to leave, or at least stop writing stupid things publicly, and leave the debate over difficult civil and social issues to people who are more thoughtful and compassionate -- a couple of core San Franciscan values that I particularly treasure.

[1] "Almost two out of three respondents (63%) reported one or multiple disabling conditions." from here: http://www.sfgov3.org/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=4...

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sleep in the cold Are we talking about the same city here? I'd call SF "occasionally chilly" at best. That's part of why so many homeless people gravitate to CA; if you're sleeping outdoors there are many, many worse climates for it. > The coldest day of the year is December 26, with an average low of 44°F and high of 55°F. https://weatherspark.com/averages/31587/San-Francisco-Califo... Related: did you know that w…

...and why we have few/no homeless in my town: it stays around 16F for weeks at a time. And goes negative overnight. Also, the Emergency Housing Project, an Ecumenical service my UU Church started 20 years ago.

The fewer homeless sleep in public buildings like train/bus stations.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#255
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A lot of them prefer this "lifestyle" I used to also think that many homeless "preferred the lifestyle of homelessness" but I recently learned of a town in Canada (Medicine Hat) that found it more cost effective to house the homeless. This myth that people prefer to be homeless was shattered and this town found that nearly all homeless were able to reintegrated back into having their own places. The mayor was skepti…

There are more than one kind of homeless person. There are the ones who simply fell on hard times and don't have money to pay for rent. There are the ones suffer addiction, there are the ones who suffer mental trauma there are the ones who have severe mental disorders, there are the ones avoiding regular society, etc. Housing first works best for the fist class as well as those who have succumbed to addiction. Some o…

> there are the ones avoiding regular society, etc.

Indeed, something as simple as smoking weed (regardless of the reason) will exclude you from most government assistance. Living indoors is not always a suitable trade-off for giving up medications that work.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#256

"The wealthy working people have earned their right to live in the city. They went out, got an education, work hard, and earned it. I shouldn’t have to worry about being accosted." I hope to god this guy didn't come from affluence.

Either way it's a toxic worldview, really.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#257
post #78

I read his article. He is right, San Francisco has severe, unbelievable problems with homelessness and drugs which are so painfully obvious to anyone who has ever visited I felt like I was reading something out of the twilight zone. I hate the climate of hostility towards anyone who remotely points this problem out. The reaction and tone of this article is exactly why I hate looking at Twitter now. It has become a pl…

Dude, he didn't say "we should ensure that we offer social programs and housing supply to address the needs of the poor, mentally ill, addicted, or otherwise disadvantaged", he said (literally) "I shouldn't have to see the pain".

He clearly doesn't care that people who are being priced out of the city they've lived in longer than he has are helped, just that they're gone. What a disgusting attitude.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#258
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wanting help is not the same as being able to be helped. Veterans often have what is called 'treatment resistant PTSD', which is another way of saying that we haven't figured out how to treat them. There is a wealth of material on how even veterans who have supportive families and are housed and in treatment can't always hold down a job. New treatments such as VR based exposure therapy, or MDMA therapy are promising,…

Sure. We do our best with the training we've had to handle the situations we are presented with. I know there are subtleties and nuance, especially with vets. That doesn't change the fact that we have to deal with them now . I'm not minimizing their issues, nor am I saying one-size fits all... but I would be remiss to not say: there are a lot of people dealing with mental/medical problems that are resistant to tradit…

If you think addicts are making "choices" in the conventional sense of that term, you haven't quite caught on to the nature of addiction. They no longer have a choice. That's why there are no ex-addicts, just people in recovery. They spend the rest of their lives learning to avoid waking the beast that dwells within them. They very carefully construct lives that keep them away from circumstances where they lose the power of choice.

It's not an easy thing. I have friends who have made it so far, and their struggles were enormous. I have friends and family who didn't make it, and they're now dead. And I know plenty of people who just aren't addictive by nature; they made all the same choices and never had a problem at all.

I get why people don't like this. We all want to believe in the power of will. In particular, we want to believe that the power of our own will is sufficient to the challenges we face. But sometimes it isn't, and if we accepted that, we'd have fewer homeless addicts.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#259
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue my be complex but you don't see the same thing in most of Europe or Canada which suggests it's not immune to government action.

You really need to read up on the issue more then. Even a simple browsing of Wikipedia will show the statement is wrong. What is primarily different is reporting by news sources. If the US is nearing a million or two homeless (numbers reported are lower) for the size of its population how does that put it in perspective of Canada listing around three hundred thousand out of thirty five million people. The EU reports…

Visited Paris last November and the situation looked very differently - homeless were present, but did not appear to be the same mentally ill types that I see in LA and SF. That's not a coincidence - France has universal healthcare (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_France).

It's really disheartening to see the plight of people who could have been helped. Especially, given that we (US) spend more per capita on healthcare...

Another interesting observation is the difference between LA and SF. In LA (beach areas and west LA/Westwood) a side from minor inconvenience of a line outside public beach restrooms/showers and some encampments, there really isn't a disruption. In SF, people walk in yelling into stores, act out aggressively in broad daylight and generally don't seem to feel any restraint. I never felt particularly unsafe in LA, but definitely had to watch my surroundings last weekend in SF, much more than ever before in the last decade.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#260

I was in Chinatown talking to my grandmother on my cellphone. A homeless person walked up and punched me in the face. SF has the worst homeless problem I've ever seen in the first world, and it rivals the worst of what I've seen in the third world. It's a disgrace and it sucks and I don't have to like it. Whatever the local/state government is doing isn't working. And sure, maybe a lot of the homeless are just normal…

My friend got punched in the face by a homeless person. Unprovoked, for no apparent reason.
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