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What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

nytimes.com

251–260 of 437 posts

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#251
No matter who you are, applying broad strokes to the industry is going to paint many incorrectly. The idea that there is one factor that "really" keeps women out of tech implies that the other reasons are false. In reality, it is very subjective. I would also have been put off by her experience with pressure to "act like a man" and I'm a man. But, just as anecdotally, I only encountered this once: the cs department of umass. Every job I've held has been much more diverse in terms of interests than one would think reading this article.

Perhaps not speaking for huge swathes of people based on anecdotal evidence would lead to better insights. I see the hiring pipeline as a problem. A college professor might see high school as the problem. The high school might see the parents as the problem. The parents might see society as the problem. Etc etc. In reality, there are so many opportunities to become persuaded or dissuaded the idea that one dominates requires extraordinary evidence.

Personally, I'm a queer, anti-authoritarian, emotional, book worm nerd. I feel repulsed by nerd/tech culture several times an hour. It's honestly embarrassing to be associated with it. If ONLY that were the only problem.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#252
post #178

I don't get something. There seems to always has been a problem of diversity in tech. Yet US has done just ok with males (white and asian) doing this stuff. Ie better than anybody else in the world. Why is this a problem (something the writer - who is a literature professor, by the way) considers a given? Is there any proof that increased diversity has any effect (except employment opportunities for the otherwise und…

I can't be certain, but I'd bet quite a bit someone made the same argument about women working outside of the home.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#253
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Premise 1: There are some innate differences that obtain between people of different sexes. Conclusion: The gender disparity in computer science is the result of innate differences between the sexes. Seems legit...

You misunderstand. I'm not making a statement on the cause of the gender disparity in computer science. I'm making a higher-order argument about why we're so apt to attribute this difference to discrimination. I hope you understand the distinction even if you disagree with my argument. The idea is that if you believe that humans have no innate differences and you observe group differences, then you must attribute the…

Indeed. You can show by simple calculations that slight innate differences giving slightly different preferences lead to significant differences in recruitment if you select entirely fair and purely by merit. In fact, restoring the 50/50 split requires significant amount of discrimination to counter the natural disproportions.

We do that in CS because it's a hot sexy field with shittons of money, so everyone wants in (also makes this field sucks more, it was better when people actually cared about doing great work instead of earning a lot, but I digress). Nobody cares that there is serious (intentional) gender imbalance among e.g. shop clerks or bank tellers. Those are not sexy jobs.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#255

Here is a page linking the writeups of the studies that were referenced in the article. https://faculty.washington.edu/scheryan/research.htm One question which perhaps should be made explicit: Who ought to be responsible for remedying the negative stereotypes that young women hold about computer programmers and STEM workers? And who is affected most negatively by attitudes such as they hold? Maybe creative writing pr…

I don't see any indication that these studies have been successfully reproduced. Do you know if these results have been independently verified?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A diversity of technical perspectives can be helpful, but there's no reason to suppose that 1) gender diversity correlates to a diversity of technical perspectives, or that 2) to achieve a diversity of technical perspectives, we need to force the demographics of programmers to match that of the population. If you want to increase diversity of thought, you'd be better off recruiting from schools other than Stanford an…

Seriously, with even a cursory amount of thought (which is far more rigor than proponents of diversity tend to give policy proposals) it's clear that much of the ideas coming out of tech these days caters to the problems of young urban fairly affluent users, which is in large part due to the tendency to want to solve problems that you're familiar with (and to be fair, the fact that it's harder to monetize low income…

As an aside, comments such as "which is far more rigor than proponents of diversity tend to give policy proposals" tend not to make your arguments more persuasive.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#257
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't hurt my feelings. It does, however, make it harder for most women to participate here. The correct way to handle it is to either find out my gender or speak as if you do not know what it is instead of assuming I am male. If you do not know my gender, it takes very little effort to speak in a way that admits you do not know it: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2015/04/what-fool-be...

> It does, however, make it harder for most women to participate here I've seen many people make this claim, but I haven't seen anyone back it up with evidence. What do you mean by "harder"? Do you mean "more difficult"? In what way? Right now, I believe claims that tiny linguistic differences create meaningful barriers to female participation in technology are all specious. I could be convinced otherwise, but have s…

> I'm not going to use awkward circumlocutions to avoid the possibility of offending someone.

I thought I had a large vocabulary. These days, it is rare that I have to stop reading an internet post and reach for a dictionary (I mean, figuratively, you know... Google). Anyway, thanks for the new word. I can't wait to work it into casual conversation sometime this week.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True but incomplete. Some of us got interested in scientific fields because we were interested in science (not science fiction). For me, it was a good teacher at a critical time in HS. Not a role model, as I did not and really do not wish to be a teacher. But somebody who opened a door into something that excited me.

Could you square that circle for me where you are interested in science, but not science fiction? I'm not talking about science fantasy, but fiction rooted in science and the ramifications of scientific development.

This is part of the cultural problem. Why should anyone be called upon to justify their non-interest in something?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#259

The real issue is that our society tells girls it's more important to be attractive and have lots of friends, instead of being smart and intelligent. The posters aren't the problem, the pipeline is, and the pipeline starts with parents.

And America's general anti-intellectual culture. Basically, the idea that it's not "cool" to be smart. Also, society generally socialized boys to be more independent (hence making it easier to ignore anti-intellectualism).

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#260
post #76

Ok so I'm a girl who codes/programs and I'm my take on the issues she raised: Stereotypes about STEM fields putting girls off I can only talk about my own experience but I saw very few negative stereotypes about STEM fields growing up. Definitely not enough to put off girls. However, while I did start coding at a young age, I didn't apply my skill to a work/business purpose until my twenties. Why? I think this issue…

For non-native speakers wondering like me, urbandictionary says STEM = Science, Technology, Engineering, Math
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