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Bernie Sanders' 404 page

berniesanders.com

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Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only I'd argue that at that scale, if you can make a system work for 80 million people, you can probably make it work for 300.

Plus the US has got over 4x the GDP of Germany ($17,418,925 vs. $3,859,547, according to an IMF report from 2014), so it's not like it can't afford it, sufficient funds exist in the system.

P.S. Numbers I provided before are missing a few zeros, as you might've guessed. ;-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...

Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinking back to the 2012 election, the sentiment of reducing government/cutting taxes in this country is palpably strong. The word "socialist" itself gradually became established as an anti-american insult. Republicans worked hard to place this label on obama as an affront to american freedom reminiscent of communism. Bernie Sanders is a self-described socialist. His ideals dont align with the prevailing american va…

>Bernie Sanders is a self-described socialist. His ideals dont align with the prevailing american values. Just because you told all the socialists in the USA that we're unpatriotic traitors and should shut the hell up, doesn't mean we stopped actually existing. And now we've got a candidate who stands for our views.

What exactly is different between the ideology underpinning Democrats, and socialism? I'm genuinely asking what you think the difference is.

The Democrats obviously support socialized medicine, socialized education, wealth redistribution via high taxes, and significant regulation of private enterprise.

To me, that is the same as socialism, except perhaps in minor technicalities of implementation, which are relatively unimportant.

For instance, maybe a "true socialist" would favor the state owning enterprises, rather than massive tax-and-regulate, but to me, that is not an important difference.

Hence, as a rule of thumb, I consider all Democrats to be socialists.

So, I don't think Hillary or Obama is much different from Sanders, except that he is more bold and open and labels himself differently.

I am genuinely interested in your views on this. I'm not going to change your mind on politics, you're not going to change mine, that is not my goal here.

Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#253
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He favors European style social democracy. His whole point is that there actually exist functioning countries where health care is universal and free, college is accessible to all, gay people have rights, etc etc., and that America could be one of those countries if we wanted to. Btw I learned this by spending five minutes last night reading about him and watching a short interview, so I think your comment gives him…

The problem with the U.S. and why universal health care potentially wouldn't work is in terms of scale. The U.S. has over 300M people living in it, over 8x as much as the most populous European country. We also have a history of hating and evading taxes at all costs (Boston Tea Party). I'm not saying it can't work but the economics gets truly tricky when you're dealing with a country that big.

Consider how much healthcare costs Americans now.

Now consider how much cheaper healthcare would be without health insurance companies.

If you get the health service you have now, but without the insurance companies taking their cut, there's no reason it can't be cheaper than what you have now.

I was surprised when I learned that ObamaCare still included insurance companies in the loop, but I see now that it was a concession to get some political support behind universal healthcare, a stepping stone towards the healthcare system that Sanders is promoting.

I don't know of a single country that regrets having a universal public healthcare system. Perhaps there's a good reason that they're so popular, a reason that goes beyond the pure economics of paying for treatment.

When you're ill you want to focus on getting better, you don't want to focus on the financial burden you're placing on your family by being ill. It seems obvious for someone who's had it all their life, but perhaps it's one of those things you have to experience the difference to really understand what you're missing out on (or conversely how lucky you are).

My only experience of the other side was when I ended up getting pneumonia on a trip to NYC. Whilst there were elements of the care that were good, and I had travel insurance which covered most of the initial cost, I can say for certain that dealing with the financial side of the treatment was not something I particularly wanted to think about in my weakened state. It put me off wanting to live there, I feel sorry for those who have to put up with it year in year out.

Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#254

I don't follow politics at all, but the more I read and hear about Bernie Sanders the more I like him. I'm sure we've got a few political experts on Hacker News so I'd love to hear if you guys think he actually has any chance of winning the presidency.

I'm genuinely curious why you like him. I don't really understand the appeal because whenever I listen to him speak it is along the lines of 'we have people starving and oh we have millionaires.' Okay, great so what? Should we not have either? How does one fix the other? Anyways, I've been asking people who like him to really explain because I don't get it and often just see 'he speaks truth, you are an idiot if you…

>Okay, great so what? Should we not have either?

We should not have starving people. But there is over 20% child poverty in the US.

The only reason we have this, the only excuse for it, is the same market ethos that justifies intense wealth. When we challenge intense wealth, we eliminate poverty. And when we eliminate poverty, every social ill that depends upon it diminishes radically.

This challenge to intense wealth, called leftism, doesn't get rid of millionaires, nor systems of personal property, nor personal liberty. This gets rid of a system of worship of intense wealth and puts an end to accepting the premise that accumulating wealth far beyond what any person or family can actually use is a justifiable thing.

Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#255
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump has no extreme positions that I've heard. Totally mainstream populist. People are downvoting me, but if you don't realize that any policy comments Trump has put forth poll great you are just out of touch. You would be by definition "extreme."

Right, because calling Mexican immigrants to the United States "criminals, drug dealers, rapists" is a completely reasonable position. I'm sure that many of the 100+ million people in the United States that are non-white would definitely agree with that. http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trumps-epic-statement-...

Simple fact, he did not call Mexican immigrants to the United States "criminals, drug dealers, rapists".

What he said is: Mexico government sent "criminals, drug dealers, rapists" to the U.S.

Maybe you don\t care the difference. whatever.

Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thomas Frank took a stab at this question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansa... Worth a read. From my perspective, there's no one answer, but I've noticed a handful of things: * Race - Most democratic socialist countries tend to have more homogeneous populations. The U.S. has sizable African-American and Latino-American minorities, often segregated into their own neighborhoods, and that oft…

> Every dollar spent on bombs is a dollar not spent on healthcare The US spends more on healthcare -- measured in total, and per capita, and as share of GDP -- than any other OECD country, even though it and Mexico are the only OECD countries without universal healthcare. It spends more out of public funds on healthcare (again, by all three measures) than many OECD countries providing universal healthcare spend in to…

Healthcare ≠ pharmaceutical corporate profits and inflated physician salaries.

Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#257
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Bernie Sanders is a self-described socialist. His ideals dont align with the prevailing american values. Just because you told all the socialists in the USA that we're unpatriotic traitors and should shut the hell up, doesn't mean we stopped actually existing. And now we've got a candidate who stands for our views.

What exactly is different between the ideology underpinning Democrats, and socialism? I'm genuinely asking what you think the difference is. The Democrats obviously support socialized medicine, socialized education, wealth redistribution via high taxes, and significant regulation of private enterprise. To me, that is the same as socialism, except perhaps in minor technicalities of implementation, which are relatively…

For purposes of this comment, I will be attempting to clarify differences between social democracy, democratic socialism, and socialism-in-general.

>What exactly is different between the ideology underpinning Democrats, and socialism?

It comes as news to me that the Democrats have an ideology. Ever since Reagan, and then Clinton, their standard strategy has been every bit neoliberal, even if not sadistically neoliberal like the Republicans have been.

That is, the difference between Democrat and Republican is, in my opinion, the difference between saying, "We're so sorry you're homeless, but if we tried to give you housing, businesses would flee the country, but at least we're using government funding to help keep your soup kitchen open", and kicking the homeless while yelling "Get a job, you filthy bum!".

Notice that in both cases, the homeless person remains homeless.

Well, I suppose if we can call pragmatic-to-the-point-of-fundamentally-unprincipled meliorativist humanitarianism an ideology, then they do have an ideology, but only the very leftmost portions of the Democratic Party actually begin to be social democrats at this point. Elizabeth Warren, for instance, is an actual social democrat: she favors a broad ideology of decommodification, in which the necessities of human life become social rights and a middle-class society is explicitly encouraged via policy. Actually, she only even begins to favor decommodification.

>The Democrats obviously support socialized medicine, socialized education, wealth redistribution via high taxes, and significant regulation of private enterprise.

As noted above, in terms of their voting record, they mostly don't favor these things at all.

Also, "significant regulation of private enterprise", in terms of things like OSHA, the EPA, occupational licensing, Sarbanes-Oxley or Glass-Steagal, etc, should be placed completely to the side. Everyone who's not wildly insane is in favor of significant regulation of private enterprise, and the only negotiation is over where the boundaries of pragmatic, useful regulation actually fall.

(That is, most people who are not right-proprietarians (ie: not in the Libertarian Party) favor regulation of business for pragmatic, instrumental reasons, rather than considering it always terminally valuable as a point of ideology. "Reversed right-proprietarianism is not leftism" is a slogan you should repeatedly write on a chalkboard until you manage to actually believe it.)

>For instance, maybe a "true socialist" would favor the state owning enterprises, rather than massive tax-and-regulate, but to me, that is not an important difference.

A true socialist favors workers owning enterprises. Whether this should be achieved via labor actions (strikes, etc), seizure of state power by revolutionary force, state power won in elections, or cooperative entrepreneurship is a matter of strategy among socialists. Sometimes we disagree with each-other as points of ideology, and sometimes as matters of pragmatic implementation. Sometimes we agree, despite hailing from very different schools of socialism.

As a classification heuristic, "revolutionary" socialists favor seizing state power via revolution, "democratic" socialists (eg: Bernie Sanders) favor obtaining state power via electoral participation, and revolutionary anarchists favor using a revolution to destroy state power (never to be wielded again). All of these groups often adopt each-other's tactics if deemed pragmatically useful, so, for instance, almost all socialists support workers' cooperatives, even though many don't consider them the final goal of socialism.

Once again: reversed right-proprietarianism is not leftism, so I thank you for actually taking the trouble to ask a leftist what we actually believe. To repeat and sum-up the core point: socialism does not really care about taxation or regulation except as tools, it cares about workers owning their own tools, work-sites, materials, and enterprises, and thus controlling their own lives rather than being controlled by an owner.

>Hence, as a rule of thumb, I consider all Democrats to be socialists.

Basically nobody who calls themselves a socialist considers the Democratic Party to be socialists. Even the Democratic Socialists of America - who are often accused by other socialists of shilling for the Democrats, and who, truth be told, straddle the line between actual democratic socialism and social democracy - do not consider the Democratic Party to be a socialist party.

>So, I don't think Hillary or Obama is much different from Sanders, except that he is more bold and open and labels himself differently.

Clinton (both Clintons) and Obama have never put forward serious programs of decommodification (Sanders' social-democratic platform) or worker ownership of enterprises and means-of-production (Sanders' encouragement of ESOPs and cooperatives). In fact, Clinton and Obama have, by and large, not done anything for the working classes, instead preferring to appeal on a combination of identity issues and middle-class meritocracy-through-education. By their voting records, and in contrast to Sanders, both Hillary and Obama have voted in favor of treaties, regulations, and other forms of laws that not only took economic power away from workers and communities, but even away from industrialists, putting the nation's destiny in the hands of the financial sector.

From a left-wing perspective, Hillary and Obama are reasonably similar, while Warren and Sanders form a platform unto themselves, and Sanders borders actual democratic socialism (his platform is mostly social-democratic).

Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're saying is a bit disingenuous. I never said anything about the articles of confederation and I was referring to the constitution as we know it. No where do I say the founding fathers wanted the federal government to have no power, just that they wanted the federal government to have limited power, and this is pretty undeniable. If they wanted all power concentrated at a federal level they would not have al…

Considering Hamilton proposed and helped enact tariffs on imports to fund the Treasury, a national bank to, among other things, assume state debts, and was also key to the Federalist Party advocating strong central government, your polemic is an exercise in begging the question through and through. You've taken "limited power" to refer to whatever the current state of affairs is and draw a conclusion that any deviati…

> Considering Hamilton

That's one of dozens. There were plenty of Democratic-Republicans, too, like Jefferson and Madison.

Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with the assessment that (in your experience) the front runners usually lose or that this Democratic primary cycle is similar to the last one. Focusing on the latter, fivethirtyeight did a comparison of Clinton's chances today compared to 8 years ago and found that she is in a much better position [1]. As much as I want Sanders to win, I trust fivethiryeight and I think they've got it right on this one. [1…

> I disagree with the assessment that (in your experience) the front runners usually lose or that this Democratic primary cycle is similar to the last one. Out of seven races under something approximating the modern primary system where an incumbent President or Vice President from the party isn't running, Democratic early (Summer-to-Fall of the year preceding the election) front-runners have apparently once actually…

> Out of seven races under something approximating the modern primary system where an incumbent President or Vice President from the party isn't running...

That "Vice President from the party isn't running" part may change at any moment, though...

Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a foreigner not quite knee-deep in the American election yet, I was actually fishing for more information on Cruz and Sanders and whether you're basing this on polls, their relationship, intuition, major (dis?)similarities in political programming or some such. Sorry if "unfold" wasn't used correctly.

I think the idea is that Trump would take enough of the conservative side of the vote that even if moderates tended to vote for Cruz (as Sanders is thought to scare moderates) it could be close between Sanders and Cruz.

Honestly, as a moderate, Sanders is far less scary to me than Clinton at the moment.
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