Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers • Hacker News Board

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#241

Post by istjohn » Wed, May 20, 2015, 5:35 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #182

rmxt wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really equating the plight and histories of Asian-Americans and African-Americans in America over the past 3 centuries? You can do that with a straight face? Hint: one history includes codified discrimination until ~50 years ago and legal enslavement until ~150 years ago and the other one doesn't. Well, I'll give you that Asian Americans faced codified discrimination into the 20th century, but don't overlook…

I must point out that, by insisting on tying this to race, this discussion has quickly degenerated into "Who's been discriminated against the most?" which has exactly nothing to do with whether or not the criminal justice system in general is screwed up. Most all of us agree that something must be done. Do you want to gather together to fix it, or spend time in endless identity politics? I mean, even if you're "right…

Your suggestion that there is a tenuous connection between the problems with our criminal justice system and racism is laughable. The connection is self-evident and unavoidable.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#242

Post by 6d0debc071 » Wed, May 20, 2015, 5:36 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #188

darkroasted wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just the Warren Court, the other big problem is witness intimidation and the "don't snitch" ethic makes it very hard to convict people for murder, so drug cases are used as a proxy. From "Ghettoside: A True Story of Murder in America": ----------- This was how Coughlin did his job on many a night. Coughlin couldn’t do much about all the shooters in Southeast who got away with it. But he could enforce drug la…

An old story - the gangsters of Chicago were eventually caught on tax evasion. There's some real value to this practice - after all, what ethical problem is there in arresting someone for one crime vs another, if they are guilty of both?

You end up transferring the penalties for more serious crimes onto lesser ones. If you're using jaywalking because you can't do someone for murder, soon enough if you're jaywalking you may as well kill whoever pisses you off while you're about it.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#243

Post by wwweston » Wed, May 20, 2015, 5:40 PM UTC

MrZongle2 wrote: post #163

rayiner wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The drug war is a symptom of something more basic: Americans lack compassion. Consider something in the non-drug context: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/02/georgia-probatio... . You can bring up private prisons and probation companies, but the fact is that these laws have been on the books all along. They were passed by part-time state legislators, who are pretty representative of ordinary people in the sta…

"The drug war is a symptom of something more basic: Americans lack compassion." Really? http://www.nptrust.org/philanthropic-resources/charitable-gi...

It's probably worth noting that not all charitable giving is compassionate giving. From your link:

>In 2013, the majority of charitable dollars went to religion (31%), education (16%), human services (12%), and grantmaking foundations (11%).2

That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with those donations, it just means they might be to keep the lights on at religious, academic, or arts institutions.

It also doesn't mean that Americans aren't at all compassionate givers... I think we are. It's just that we're also all too often anxious to draw lines about deserving or undeserving, though (criminals, of course, being deserving of punishment rather than charity).

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#244

Post by CPLX » Wed, May 20, 2015, 5:41 PM UTC

beat wrote: post #221

CPLX wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's a black man driving a car too nice for him. That's not about the war on drugs. Actually, it kind of is. What's the implicit assumption in that story? Of course, that he's a drug dealer. What would be the pretext for pulling him over and searching his car? To look for drugs. It really is the cornerstone of policing in 2015, just try to imagine counterfactuals where there was no such thing as illegal drugs and d…

But again, look at the high profile shootings recently. The cops weren't looking for drugs. In all of those cases, they were stopped for basic harassment. The nice car isn't a reason to pull over the doctor. It's an excuse.

I think you're saying this is not about drugs. That's correct.

That's a distinct statement from saying it's not about the war on drugs. It's definitely about that.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#245

Post by beat » Wed, May 20, 2015, 5:41 PM UTC

netfire wrote: post #232

beat wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason blacks growing up poor in this country suffer bad outcomes isn't because they're told that they're victims by well-meaning social programs. It's because they're treated like criminals and given very few opportunities to achieve something better.

They may not tell them that directly, but when you consider someone's race in giving aid, aren't you telling them that they are disadvantaged because of their race? We should be focusing on helping someone because they are poor, because they are unjustly treated like criminals or because they have few opportunities to succeed, not because they are black or of a certain race.

But the aid isn't itself racial. That's a myth.

Have you ever had to apply for any sort of public assistance? The process is tremendously slow, complex, and bureaucratic, driven largely by layers of demands for proof that the aid is actually necessary. The basic takeaway of this process for the person in need isn't feeling like a victim, but rather feeling like society assumes you're a lazy thief.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#246

Post by aidenn0 » Wed, May 20, 2015, 5:49 PM UTC

teekert wrote: post #204

In the US, back in 2007, I met some dutch guys, aged 20 and 21, the 20 y/o just spend a night in jail because he was drinking in a bar. He didn't even realize, back home he was drinking legally for over 4 years (and for drinking before the age of 16 there was no real punishment). We had a good laugh, "they must have a lot of jails here" we said. Lately the government is becoming more firm here (the Netherlands) as we…

In the US if you go to the hospital for alcohol related symptoms and you are under 21, you are essentially guaranteed to get an arrest ticket for underage drinking.

Yes this is inhibiting for seeking help.

[edit] See replies, this isn't universally true.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#247

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, May 20, 2015, 5:51 PM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #246

teekert wrote: post #204

In the US, back in 2007, I met some dutch guys, aged 20 and 21, the 20 y/o just spend a night in jail because he was drinking in a bar. He didn't even realize, back home he was drinking legally for over 4 years (and for drinking before the age of 16 there was no real punishment). We had a good laugh, "they must have a lot of jails here" we said. Lately the government is becoming more firm here (the Netherlands) as we…

In the US if you go to the hospital for alcohol related symptoms and you are under 21, you are essentially guaranteed to get an arrest ticket for underage drinking. Yes this is inhibiting for seeking help. [edit] See replies, this isn't universally true.

There may be some jurisdictions in the US where this is true, but it doesn't seem to be generally true. As this kind of thing is a matter of state law and local agency practice, there probably is no valid generalization one way or the other on the level of "in the US".

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#248

Post by gknoy » Wed, May 20, 2015, 5:51 PM UTC

MrZongle2 wrote: post #187

harryh wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This brings to mind the most famous quote from America's Greatest Poet: "Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes."

America and Americans (myself included) are full of inconsistencies and contradictions, but then I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a country that couldn't be described similarly to some degree. My point is that I take issue with Americans being painted with a big, wide brush of "compassionless" when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Is there perhaps less compassion or concern (in general) directed towa…

In the context of the justice system, I think we tend to lack compassion. Most of the Americans I know (family, etc) seem more intent on __retribution__ and punishing Bad People, rather than compassion. Once someone is a Bad Person (criminal, poor, or even just someone they don't like), compassion seems to go out the window.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#249

Post by aidenn0 » Wed, May 20, 2015, 5:53 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #247

aidenn0 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US if you go to the hospital for alcohol related symptoms and you are under 21, you are essentially guaranteed to get an arrest ticket for underage drinking. Yes this is inhibiting for seeking help. [edit] See replies, this isn't universally true.

There may be some jurisdictions in the US where this is true, but it doesn't seem to be generally true. As this kind of thing is a matter of state law and local agency practice, there probably is no valid generalization one way or the other on the level of "in the US".

For the 3 towns in 3 different states I have lived in, this is true. I accept that this is a very small number of data points.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#250

Post by lotsofmangos » Wed, May 20, 2015, 5:59 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #115

lars wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The drug war is part of it. But the big thing to fix is income inequality. High income inequality is correlated with higher homicide rate, higher robbery rate, lower civic participation, higher mortality, lower social cohesion and lower well-being in children. So many social problems are strongly predicted by this variable, yet many refuse to consider inequality to be a problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_…

Many consider inequality a symptom/consequence of one's own chosen behavior, not a cause. (ETA "chosen behavior" clause.)

Your environment restricts your available choices and these things are tied back on themselves, so behaviour creates an environment that then influences behaviour. Looking for ultimate causes in current behaviours for social systems that have developed over evolutionary timescales is pretty pointless.