Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009) • Hacker News Board

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#241

Post by wglb » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:08 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #208

tptacek wrote: post #23

Don't specialize in things that depreciate as rapidly as programming languages! C++ experience is quickly getting less relevant over time, but stochastic calculus, digital signal processing, machine learning, and distributed systems aren't. Some of those specialties get more valuable; in fact, sometimes, the forces that make things like C++ less valuable actually clear the way for things like distributed systems to b…

don't specialize in programming languages Agree and disagree. I think that learning the minutiae of a specific programming language might be an evolutionary dead end. I say "might be" because there are C++ engineers making $500k in HFT. Since we're both in the same city (Chicago) now, we both probably know some of them. C++ isn't dead yet, and it's not even close (but a mediocre C++ engineer is probably hosed). What…

The C++ engineers making $500k in HFT are more due to the HFT part of their skills. As was said elsewhere, focus on solving business problems with engineering skills, not so much on the language.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#242

Post by overgard » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:13 PM UTC

switch_bro wrote: post #194

hoboon wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fantastic, and makes me hopeful. I'm almost 40 and no real career accomplishments but there's still time for me, maybe, before I just decide to hang it up and just go home.

The article focuses on the fact that as programmers age past 30 their salaries grow but they have roughly the same skills. But that is not the main dynamic here. The main dynamic is that as a person's brain ages, it improves in some ways and gets worse in others. The improvement is that you have more depth and experience. The loss is that your brain gets slower and less flexible. Unfortunately, in computer programmin…

> Unfortunately, in computer programming you will run out of experience and depth that you can accumulate after about 8-10 years of work (say ages 22 - 32). Every new technology is just a variant of the previous 999 technologies. But you still keep getting older every year, and incurring the downsides of getting older!

I'm going to call bullshit on that. There are a lot of recycled technologies (especially in web), but the notion that after 8 years you know all there is to know -- that's absurd.

I just turned 30. I work with people both older and younger than me, but I learn way more from the 40+ year old people in my office than I do from the 20 year olds.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#243

Post by kamaal » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:18 PM UTC

dan00 wrote: post #202

switch_bro wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article focuses on the fact that as programmers age past 30 their salaries grow but they have roughly the same skills. But that is not the main dynamic here. The main dynamic is that as a person's brain ages, it improves in some ways and gets worse in others. The improvement is that you have more depth and experience. The loss is that your brain gets slower and less flexible. Unfortunately, in computer programmin…

> The big picture is that computer programming is a field with low barriers to entry and where young people have a significant advantage. Computer programming isn't just one field, there're several completely different fields. All what you said might be true for the web development field, where the technology at hand isn't really that hard and you apply more or less the same technology and knowledge for each web proj…

>>But there're several other fields where experience and knowledge are a lot harder to gain

Factor in internet that statement isn't true anymore. The amount of knowledge on the net today is mind boggling. Its scary to imagine how much information has become cheap and easy to access these days. And no one knows where this is all heading.

The jobs that require knowledge and experience hard to gain are already very few and shrinking with every coming day.

>>work isn't about getting shit done as fast as possible, but about getting something done right.

Wait until a 20 year old shows how it can be done fast and right.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#244

Post by kamaal » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:23 PM UTC

elwell wrote: post #79

bikamonki wrote: post #2

More options: - Go solo. At 40 you should be experienced enough to handle up to mid-sized projects, alone and on a reasonable time-frame. Try to pick projects that your clients will actually use, with new features and support contracts you will have steady income for the long-term. - Go startup. Stop thinking you need to come up with the next über-for-x. There are plenty of opportunities for small sass shops that cat…

> At 40 you should be experienced enough to handle up to mid-sized projects, alone and on a reasonable time-frame At 25...

At 25, you should be working towards a goal to not having to do anything to make make a living by the time you are 40.

Focus on eliminating the very need for the problem to exist. Than on workarounds.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#245

Post by ownagefool » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:42 PM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #237

ownagefool wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem with hiring grey beards, as you put it, is that a lot of them aren't amazing, but due to years, they have an authorative attitude and expect to be paid more than your 20 something devs. If it's my money, I'd hire the 20 year old with gaping holes in their knowledge who are willing and eager to learn over the 40s something dev who thinks their way is better because they're 10 years my senior. I have a…

"with gaping holes in their knowledge who are willing and eager to learn" If you don't mind the 'learning' involving data loss, security breaches and competitive disadvantages... sure. Go for it. I say this as someone who did learning 20+ years ago, and have lost data, had security issues, and had many of the issues that come with learning technology (and business). My employers and clients absorbed part of those lea…

Hi there, you seem a tad upset. You should probably note my last sentence where I point out most of the better folks who I want to work with are older. My point was that simply being older doesn't make someone better, and that I'd rather train a junior than deal with a stubborn incompetent senior team mate. Unless you think the latter applies to you, you probably shouldn't be upset, I'm not generlising, I'm pointing out that if you're good, you don't need to worry.

That said, the assumption that you know better than me because you're 10 years older is part of the folly of what I'm pointing out. Indeed, you may know more than I do in my area of expertise, however you should base that on fact and merit. You should not assume that's the case just because you're older than me. If you tried that in an interview with me, indeed, it wouldn't last long and as a blunt Scottish guy, you'd certainly know why.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#246

Post by czep » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:44 PM UTC

42, happily but anxiously still coding. What most disturbs me about the ageism debate is that so many young programmers believe it is right, natural, and inevitable to assume that older programmers should be cast aside. It is an odd form of false consciousness that so many of us believe in our 20s that we will be retired before 30. Someone mentioned Barrett's quote astonished that "clueless management" would treat programmers' careers like those of professional atheletes. But how clueless is it really, when so many of us think the exact same way?

We all think we're going to be the lucky ones to strike it rich, all it takes is hard work and our natural talent and voila, $100M exit. Then, you reach mid-life, and still want to write code, how do you feel now about your youthful cavalier attitude?

If I could travel back in time 20 years and tell myself "dude, someday you'll be my age too!" I probably wouldn't have done anything differently, but it would be a serious boost to the humility of our young brethren for them to realize that they too will be in our shoes one day--a day that comes far too soon.

The thing is, I am actually one of the lucky ones. I could retire now and never work another day. Sure I don't have a private jet or a house in Atherton, but I have the freedom to walk away from anything and not worry about money. It's liberating, but I certainly don't want to stop. I love programming! I want to keep working. And based on the sentiments of those around me, and the nice paycheck I command, it's clear I still have a lot to contribute to this economy before I'm put out to pasture. But I would like a less toxic enviroment. Fortunately I don't encounter many clueless managers these days. I simply don't work for organizations where decisions would be made to hire youth just to save a few bucks. But I still encounter the young bucks who think I'm too expensive and simply there to steal their thunder and take credit for everything. Just remember kids, someday you will be just like me, if you're lucky.

We have so little time, don't waste any of it comparing yourself to others--young or old. Treat every day as a competition with yourself... to end the day a little bit smarter, a little wiser, a little bit more humble than you were when the day started.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#247

Post by rndrnd » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:44 PM UTC

archgrove wrote: post #215

switch_bro wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is not that there is nothing to learn after 8-10 years. There is enough to learn for multiple lifetimes. The point is that after 8-10 years additional learning/experience will not give you a competitive advantage compared to younger programmers. Also, I can see why someone would downvote my post above, since it describes an unpleasant reality. But I think it is crucial for young programmers to be aware of t…

Sure it does (at least, as much as any other "intellectual" field, like accounting or law). Do you want the guy who knows X (or 3 variants of X, each sequentially in fashion)? Or the guy who knows X, Y and Z? The key is, no matter the age, to keep expanding your knowledge base.

Well, different intellectual fields have different experience curves.

Accounting, medicine, law all have much longer experience curves. Accounting also has significant barriers to entry (though not as high as medicine). Law has lower barriers to entry and you can see them facing a wave of unemployed lawyers and closing law schools right about now. Etc ...

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#248

Post by UK-AL » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:45 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #26

therealwill wrote: post #8

Or plan C. For younger engineers start thinking about financial independence. Software Engineers enjoy a high starting salary and an even higher mid career salary so it is entirely possible to achieve financial independence in your 30s-40s with a frugal lifestyle and smart investing.

Mr Money Mustache for the win!

The problem I have money Mustache is that he doesn't value time that much.

He advocates doing things yourself, DIY etc.

If you can pay someone less to do something than you could earn in the same amount of time. Its better to outsource those tasks.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#249

Post by tomhallett » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:45 PM UTC

fierycatnet wrote: post #41

After reading stuff like this I never know what to think. I am 28 and just getting started. I hope to land my first developer position by the end of the year. So what am I to make of it? By the time I am competent enough I will be expendable? I am not discouraged but articles like these don't make sense to me. Almost everywhere I look and in every aspect of my life I am always "behind" and I don't feel like it but ev…

Congrats on learning to become a developer. Always excited when people join the community. A few things:

1) that feeling of "being behind" never goes away. In fact, the more you learn, the wider the breadth of topics you will want to learn, so the feeling only grows. Software engineering is not a field which lends itself well to people who want to "learn the playbook so they can be confident they are doing it right". The main question is if you can spin "feeling behind" into a positive force, similar to what competitive athletes do.

2) if people are telling you that "you are behind" - ignore them and start hanging out with better people. There are more than enough talented people out there who want todo nothing more than help others while building up their confidence in the process.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#250

Post by ownagefool » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 4:51 PM UTC

pjungwir wrote: post #230

ownagefool wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem with hiring grey beards, as you put it, is that a lot of them aren't amazing, but due to years, they have an authorative attitude and expect to be paid more than your 20 something devs. If it's my money, I'd hire the 20 year old with gaping holes in their knowledge who are willing and eager to learn over the 40s something dev who thinks their way is better because they're 10 years my senior. I have a…

Something that really frustrates me is people who are more expert than me but can't justify their pronouncements. I had a high school friend who I'm sure was smarter than me claim, "No one does object oriented programming the right way [except him]," but when pressed would just deliberately play games and mystify. Most DBAs I've worked with had their preferred way of doing things, but were incapable of answering Why?…

That's actually a cracking point. I want to work with people who can defend their positions. The reasoning behind our decisions should be clear, if it isn't, you lose points against the guys who can do it. Luckily, age typically makes you better at this, which is what makes it really suspect when you get an older guy pulling an appeal to authority.