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Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

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Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#241

Post by dragontamer »

dreamfactory2 wrote: post #237
dragontamer wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the link. Nonetheless, the Metadata debate remains important, so I'll continue to bring it up. I've read through the rest of these threads, and they're all "Snowden's a hero!!!" without even touching upon the debate that he's brought up. EDIT: Its as if this "metadata collection" is the most evil thing in the world ever done. Good gosh. Its still hugely ironic to me that Snowden fled to the state with t…

Hong Kong was a stopover. It was the US gov made him stay there and blocked his travel to anywhere but Russia.

I doubt it. Part of Snowden's treasure trove was him revealing to China about US hacking into Chinese Universities.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2013/06/22/u-s-hacked-...

Snowden explicitly collected how the US was spying on China, went to China, and then "publicly" gave out those details. I think he was expecting the Chinese Government to take him in and protect him after the big reveal.

For whatever reason, China didn't want him. Probably because China has enough issues with their own whistle blowers. Or maybe China already knew the information Snowden had, so they didn't value him at all.

Russia apparently values Snowden very much. They like him if only because he serves as an anti-US rallying cry.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#242

Post by adamnemecek »

LLWM wrote: post #222
Estragon wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NSA has been proven to lie to its overseers repeatedly over the course of decades while Snowden has been proven to lie to the NSA in order to expose its lies. Personally, I regard Snowden's behavior to be more trustworthy in this respect.

Ah, the good old two-wrongs-make-a-right school of morality.

It's more of lesser of two evils school of morality.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#243

Post by dragontamer »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #240
dragontamer wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As I said in my other post, you don't actually need call records to find a swatter. They called the police, the police have the number, tada. And if the Swatter used another phone to call a Google Voice number to create a local line in another city, they will need Metadata to figure out what that _OTHER_ telephone number is. Otherwise, they have a phone number to a fake google-account created in TOR. That's not ver…

Okay, you have a point, but that's about proxies, not normal calls between two people. If the police can't get access to limited phone metadata with oversight, the solution is to give them a way to get limited phone metadata with oversight, not to give them access to all the phone metadata. >Now if you don't like it, that's fine. But know that you're moving from the status-quo. This is how the government has operated…

> If the police can't get access to limited phone metadata with oversight, the solution is to give them a way to get limited phone metadata with oversight, not to give them access to all the phone metadata.

Did you read the business records provision?

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1861

Read it again. It requires the agencies to check off with a Judge. It already _has_ oversight built into it. If something is wrong with the oversight, then tell me what you think is wrong with it.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#244

Post by ics »

plainOldText wrote: post #226
ics wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said in another response: it's a political statement made with public art. As far as Parks and Rec is concerned, it's big heavy piece of vandalism, the integrity of which they know nothing about. To put this in a programmer's perspective: imagine if artists wanting to make political statements suddenly started littering your linux kernel with binary blobs which caused your boot screen to flash an image of Snowde…

Absolutely, you can define this act as vandalism. And although I appreciate you framed your analogy such that it can be understood by the HN audience, it does not account for the nature of these two systems, Linux kernel vs social groups. You cannot always transfer the techniques or properties which work in one world, to another, and expect similar results. The Linux kernel represents a collection of modules, which a…

Indeed, the analogy is rough and probably reveals that I am not a programmer by trade. As with all analogies, one hopes that others can lift them into slight abstraction in order to find the meaning and reach a similar conclusion or line of thought at least. Even if I could be helped in improving it, analogies are virtually never airtight– in this case comparing a physical park to software is not without difficulty. Sadly I can't think of any prankware that would really get the message across here.

Edit: Re-reading your comment I might have missed a few parts so I'll reply back while waiting for paint to dry (fun day).

I wasn't trying to equate the two systems or their intricacies and behavior. Rather, we are given some system with rules which govern what we expect it to "be". (I could say do, but consider this the "state" of the system; if it is code, it is not executing but just lines of code in files.) When that system is changed in a way we do not expect by an action that we had prior expectations for, we generally try to revert that action. You are responsible for your system, so you can do what you like. Parks and Rec is responsible for this park, and all of its users and rightly intends to remove this unexpected modification, regardless of its origin or meaning.

I'm just realizing what a missed opportunity to be hip it was– when you let a friend provision your vagrant images with unknown docker containers with [insert unexpected behavior] just before distributing it to thousands of users... (The potential danger of the thing would be a side-effect though so this one's not so good either. I tried!)

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#245

Post by adamnemecek »

dragontamer wrote: post #220
Dylan16807 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Here come the down votes. Come on people, lets see your stuff. Truth hurts, doesn't it? Anyone wanna take me on? Oh stop whining. You can't just accuse someone of being a spy and expect upvotes. Accusations without evidence (hint hint) are not 'truth'. >how you expect police to actually deal with modern criminals (ie: Swatters) Well for most crimes the police have traditionally gotten along fine without such vast me…

> Oh stop whining. You can't just accuse someone of being a spy and expect upvotes. Accusations without evidence (hint hint) are not 'truth'. Snowden is the first guy I'm aware of who fled to China (and later, to Russia) to protect his own free speech. Color me a little bit suspicious of him. > Well for most crimes the police have traditionally gotten along fine without such vast metadata. For that crime specifically…

> Snowden is the first guy I'm aware of who fled to China (and later, to Russia) to protect his own free speech. Color me a little bit suspicious of him.

There aren't that many countries who would not release Snowden to the US.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#246

Post by polymatter »

Someone1234 wrote: post #90
borgia wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The U.S. is getting scarier by the day, folks. It really is. The facade of democracy is very quickly being peeled back to reveal something utterly terrifying. The response from the people has been the most disappointing and depressing thing though. The random sampling in NYC, of all places in the US, by Oliver's show was a brutal reminder of the mindset of the average person there.

Ignoring the republic/democratic state distinction, the US's democratic status has always been weak due to FPTP (ditto with the UK). It is essentially a system designed to keep the majority from even running and to keep the minority opinion silent. If the US (or UK) cared at all about democracy like they always claim they'd move to something better (e.g. Open list, party list, full on proportional representation, or…

I highly recommend the following CGP Grey video for further detail about the problems of First Past the Post voting (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo).

> But instead we have FPTP, and why?

Its the simplest and most naive electoral system so Joe Bloggs understands it. Its just "the person who gets the most votes wins". The problems this system causes are ephemeral statistical problems that require more than a 10 second soundbite to explain or even to detect happening. So from Joe Bloggs point of view, you want to change his fundamental right to vote based on the fact that your intellectual busywork has concluded that the wrong person can win the election. That's how the UK failed to get Alternative Vote passed in 2011.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#247

Post by Semiapies »

AnkhMorporkian wrote: post #186
Semiapies wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea Correct. You have no evidence or plausible argument for characterizing what's in the dump or for making your assertion that Snowden himself doesn't know what's in the dump. You only have ominous generalities to hint about. Unlike other posters, I don't care whether you're a shill. There are many people around the world who will say what you say - and much worse things - without taking a dime. I submit…

I'm not the one turning this into an us vs. them thing, I think reforms need to be made. I think that many of the things released have already far exceeded the scope of constitutional abuses, and there's no reason to believe there aren't more of them in the pipeline. If you want change, it might be best not to alienate the 45% of Americans who believe that Snowden went too far or the 56% who believe that he should be…

"I think that many of the things released have already far exceeded the scope of constitutional abuses"

And yet, you're here going on about how the real problem is what Snowden did, not the NSA. I see nothing in what you're saying that's distinguishable from concern-trolling.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#248

Post by dragontamer »

adamnemecek wrote: post #245
dragontamer wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oh stop whining. You can't just accuse someone of being a spy and expect upvotes. Accusations without evidence (hint hint) are not 'truth'. Snowden is the first guy I'm aware of who fled to China (and later, to Russia) to protect his own free speech. Color me a little bit suspicious of him. > Well for most crimes the police have traditionally gotten along fine without such vast metadata. For that crime specifically…

> Snowden is the first guy I'm aware of who fled to China (and later, to Russia) to protect his own free speech. Color me a little bit suspicious of him. There aren't that many countries who would not release Snowden to the US.

Yes there are.

Ecuador has proven itself reliable with Wikileaks founder Julian Assange. It proved itself reliable _long_ before Snowden decided to pull Chinese-specific information from the US Spy agency, fly to China, release Chinese information and (probably) beg to stay.

Instead of going to a reliable country like Ecuador, he went to China. Snowden isn't a dumb guy either, he was clearly keeping up with the news. He chose China because the data he pilfered was Chinese specific.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2013/06/22/u-s-hacked-...

Once in China, after the reveal, Snowden became trapped. He couldn't fly over any other country that had US influence. He furthermore got trapped in Russia (it is extremely sketchy. I think Russia wanted him, and they got him. Russia probably won't let him go.)

I don't think Snowden is working with Russia. He was trying to get to Ecuador IIRC with help from Julian Assange. But based on what he did in Hong Kong, it is clear to me that he expected help from the Chinese Government. If Snowden went to Ecuador from the start, I'd have a much easier time believing that what he was doing was for good-will.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#249

Post by decentrality »

ics wrote: post #219
Dylan16807 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The integrity of the park against carrying junk into it is basically zero. Not an issue.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean– litter? Or "junk" as in something hidden in the statue (far more conspiratorial than I intended this whole discussion to go)? Edit: I think I know what you mean based on your other reply to me; I'll respond there unless you want to clarify anyway.

I think he's saying that if it weren't handled as a political statement, there's no realistic defense against trash being brought into the park. It's the responsibility of the maintainers to notice - not people to prevent the natural flow of life from happening.

People leave cool stuff places. It happens. I mean how many times have cell phones been left somewhere on accident say, which if it was on purpose doesn't matter either -- OH NO, PARK BENCH SSL CERT MITM ATTACKED, PURGE YOUR LUNCHBOXES

No, it's an object left/put there. So unput it there. That's what parks & recreation does all the rest of the time. Now it's a rad piece of art, not a cell phone, not an umbrella, etc.

Re: Massive, Illicit Bust of Edward Snowden Stuck to a War Monument in Brooklyn

#250

Post by ics »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #236
ics wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Smuggling a heavy bronze statue into a park has bypassed security (yes, parks have security). - Statues have potential but very small likelihood of being 'malicious'. - Heavy statues have great potential to cause physical harm when not properly built or installed. - This potential for harm is considered minimal to non-existant when the sculpture is commissioned or otherwise created by people with known identities.…

It's a couple feet tall and entirely inside the width of a large pillar. It's not going to fall on anyone. Education about electronics is good, but I think fighting back against "fear of blame" is also an important thing. I'm sure someone in the organization knew that blinking lights don't make bombs. Why didn't that message get to management?

> It's a couple feet tall and entirely inside the width of a large pillar. It's not going to fall on anyone.

You're probably right, but that's a very naive way to approach public safety and accountability. If it was still visible right now there would probably be a few people climbing up to it to get a selfie with Snowden.

> I'm sure someone in the organization knew that blinking lights don't make bombs. Why didn't that message get to management?

That's not how bureaucracies work. (The fear of blame point is very valid though.)

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