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Elon Musk: Tesla cars will have “autopilot mode” by summer

nytimes.com

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Re: Elon Musk: Tesla cars will have “autopilot mode” by summer

#241

Post by mkal_tsr »

diminoten wrote: post #236
dang wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Am I doxxing myself by using my last name as my username, or by putting my real name, current position at my company, and my email address in my profile? No. But it's clear that the term "doxxing" (which I've never used before and apparently can't even spell) is a giant distraction. How about we just stick to the point about no personal attacks.

I just didn't see what happened above as a personal attack. He referenced his professional experience and someone provided evidence of that career. But you're right, this is hardly an important issue to me and we could go on about "doxxing" for days, so I'll consider my peace made.

This is exactly what I was getting at, glad someone else saw that. I didn't see posting relevant credentials that are easily found through usernames containing PII to really be doxxing because it's "self-doxxing", and the fact that those credentials are relevant to the discussion.

This is the problem I have with HN moderation, they have rules that they selectively enforce but it's all built on their heuristics which they never flesh-out. Neither of us can go to a page on HN and run through a checklist to determine if content in a post will or will not be considered flaggable/bannable because it's a "closed source heuristic" if you will. There are guidelines sure, but the enforcement seems very wishy-washy and selective.

Re: Elon Musk: Tesla cars will have “autopilot mode” by summer

#242

Post by cookingrobot »

chrisBob wrote: post #185
cookingrobot wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self-driving cars should come with insurance included, since accidents aren't the owners fault.

You already have the option of paying extra for accidents that aren't your fault. Why would that be free now?

Currently insurance is on the driver, because accidents are their fault. In a self driving car, accidents are the manufacturers fault, so they should have the burden of insurance.

With a self driving car, you're really just a passenger, so you shouldn't need your own insurance to ride in one.

Re: Elon Musk: Tesla cars will have “autopilot mode” by summer

#243

Post by derefr »

dang wrote: post #235
Karunamon wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WTF? Posting public information is now considered doxxing? You don't get much more public than a LinkedIn page.

I have committed a faux pas among the cognoscenti. Message received! The point, though, is that posting someone else's personal details in order to malign them is a breach of the spirit of this site. I don't see how that could be more obvious. Fortunately, users flagged that comment. Let's have no more of this.

To be clear about this, for future reference: is it doxxing to post the contact information for someone's public office, when speaking to people about their concerns is part of that person's job? (Indeed, even posting this information in anger, per se to encourage "attacking them"—but when the targeted person has encouraged such "attacks", created a separate channel for them, and thinks of receiving them as "just what they do" rather than something scary.)

For example, I don't think I've ever heard it called doxxing when someone puts up the address+phone number of a congressman and encourages people to write in. Nor when someone posts the "personal corporate" email of the CEO of a company to explain how to "go over the heads" of the CSRs of that company or to tell them about how you're boycotting the company.

I don't think doxxing is about contact information, per se; it's more about the line between someone's public and private personas. If someone actually has the equivalent of a public-persona "complaints hotline", then I would think it would be just fine to post that, no?

Re: Elon Musk: Tesla cars will have “autopilot mode” by summer

#244

Post by derefr »

john_b wrote: post #232
yason wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the engineers' job to resist with good reasoning. It's the visionary's job to convince them that we people only think the impossible things are impossible. That's basically how I do my internal dialogue. I shoot down an idea of mine because it's too brittle, vague, and difficult. But I still want to build that something. So, I keep thinking and end up saying to myself, "Well, maybe I could do something that's li…

> "It's the engineers' job to resist with good reasoning. It's the visionary's job to convince them that we people only think the impossible things are impossible." While I don't disagree with you, context matters greatly here. This is the same logic of every middle managing pawn or upper management narcissist who self-styles him or herself the "visionary" you describe. Someone like Musk has the technical aptitude an…

Yep, this is the point I was trying to make way upthread. If "the engineers just couldn't do it" is treated as a physical reality due to the objective hardness of the problem, and Musk recalibrates his future time-estimates based on that, great! If "the engineers just couldn't do it" is treated as a failure of the engineers, and people are fired for failing to conform to Musk's rosy estimate, not great!

And the latter is what you'd presume by default of a manager. It might not be true of Musk in particular, but in absence of explicit evidence to the contrary, it's likely, which is why this kind of overeager optimism can be downright scary-sounding coming from a high-level corporate executive.

I have a feeling that, like you said, Musk listens to these people. Maybe he actually knows their potential better than they know it themselves; knows what they can pull off when driven, that they wouldn't think (or especially claim) themselves capable of otherwise. Maybe, in other words, he's like the protagonist of some military ensemble drama series. (Jack O'Neill in Stargate SG-1, say.)

And given how successful he is, maybe he is that guy! Someone's gotta be. But that guy is really rare. Most corporations, sadly, don't have that guy anywhere in them. And without that guy, you've just got unrealistic promises, followed by flops, followed by finger-pointing.

Re: Elon Musk: Tesla cars will have “autopilot mode” by summer

#245

Post by SamReidHughes »

derefr wrote: post #243
dang wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have committed a faux pas among the cognoscenti. Message received! The point, though, is that posting someone else's personal details in order to malign them is a breach of the spirit of this site. I don't see how that could be more obvious. Fortunately, users flagged that comment. Let's have no more of this.

To be clear about this, for future reference: is it doxxing to post the contact information for someone's public office, when speaking to people about their concerns is part of that person's job? (Indeed, even posting this information in anger, per se to encourage "attacking them"—but when the targeted person has encouraged such "attacks", created a separate channel for them, and thinks of receiving them as "just wha…

It's not the definition of the term "doxxing" that makes a post be unclassy.

Re: Elon Musk: Tesla cars will have “autopilot mode” by summer

#246

Post by SamReidHughes »

diminoten wrote: post #236
dang wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Am I doxxing myself by using my last name as my username, or by putting my real name, current position at my company, and my email address in my profile? No. But it's clear that the term "doxxing" (which I've never used before and apparently can't even spell) is a giant distraction. How about we just stick to the point about no personal attacks.

I just didn't see what happened above as a personal attack. He referenced his professional experience and someone provided evidence of that career. But you're right, this is hardly an important issue to me and we could go on about "doxxing" for days, so I'll consider my peace made.

For what it's worth I read the tone of the comment quite negatively. So did the person that made the comment, given that they used a throwaway.

Re: Elon Musk: Tesla cars will have “autopilot mode” by summer

#247

Post by SamReidHughes »

mkal_tsr wrote: post #241
diminoten wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just didn't see what happened above as a personal attack. He referenced his professional experience and someone provided evidence of that career. But you're right, this is hardly an important issue to me and we could go on about "doxxing" for days, so I'll consider my peace made.

This is exactly what I was getting at, glad someone else saw that. I didn't see posting relevant credentials that are easily found through usernames containing PII to really be doxxing because it's "self-doxxing", and the fact that those credentials are relevant to the discussion. This is the problem I have with HN moderation, they have rules that they selectively enforce but it's all built on their heuristics which…

Afaict it's like, be a decent person, or at least try. Not sure why that's a problem.

Re: Elon Musk: Tesla cars will have “autopilot mode” by summer

#248

Post by eru »

agumonkey wrote: post #193
eru wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same number of crashes, but people can drive faster? That's a win in my book.

Heh, fair point, we have different value systems. I'm for same speed / lower accidents, especially dumber ones. These days speed gets all the rage but in my mind we should aim for lower tempo, more density.

Oh, lower accidents, same speed is also good. Anything that improves on the pareto frontier!

Re: Elon Musk: Tesla cars will have “autopilot mode” by summer

#250

Post by nitrogen »

mark_integerdsv wrote: post #172
tensor wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His original point was that people are crediting Musk with what is actually the success of the engineers working there. The public loves to give credit to figureheads. Naturally, this upsets the people actually doing the innovation who get ignored.

This comes up a lot on various forums. The more technical the crowd the more you hear this kind of thing but it really does bear mentioning that if these engineers could be doing it without these figureheads then really, they should do that. They fact that it's plausible has no bearing on the fact that it is often simply not the case. Why did Apple nearly fail before Jobs return? Why are Tesla and SpaceX a direct res…

The more technical the crowd the more you hear this kind of thing but it really does bear mentioning that if these engineers could be doing it without these figureheads then really, they should do that.

This is an oldish thread, but I want to point out that the main reason engineers need figureheads is to attract capital. The second reason is to unify the engineers toward a common goal.

I do believe engineers deserve a lot more credit from society, and also that engineers underestimate the contributions of non-engineers. I feel that the subtly snide way you worded your statement ("really, they should do that") is needlessly derisive to both groups.

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