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My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

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Re: My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

#241

Post by jdmichal »

codecamper wrote: post #194
mtrimpe wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a matter of mindset and effort. I'm fairly certain I could study for a few weeks and ace the tests. I'm unfortunately also very resistant to doing useless work. When the first interaction with a company involves requiring me to do useless work to prove my commitment (and everyone in the company has passed that hurdle) I very much doubt that I would be... how shall I put it... a good 'culture fit.'

I doubt it would take just a few weeks b4 you could ace the test. They'll ask hard questions that prove a depth of knowledge. The only trouble is that in most day to day programming, you will very rarely require this depth of knowledge about algorithms. So then, if your aim isn't to get one of these jobs, this sort of knowledge is rather useless. Better to study a new language or statistics / big data. Rather, the mo…

> I think the focus on algorithms can be an underhanded way to prefer young, fresh out of school applicants.

This is exactly the thought that came to mind when I started reading this chain, and I'm happy you hit on it. This is definitely part of that elusive ageism that we keep hearing about in SV.

I was one of them; I participated in my school's ACM ICPC [0] teams. Just knowing the algorithms wasn't enough; we had to know what problems they applied to and how to quickly and effectively code them, often with a translation layer for the required inputs and outputs. This was hours of practice every week, and I suspect the top teams are a combination of natural talent and even more practice than I put in.

Even just four years later, I would read through the packet of problems for the year and feel out of practice. I would read problems and recognize that, once I could have coded it within a half hour, but not anymore. I have traded having deep knowledge of problems with the daily practice of "engineering in the real world", and I would not even want to have it another way.

[0] http://icpc.baylor.edu/

Re: My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

#242

Post by pja »

odonnellryan wrote: post #204
downandout wrote: post #135

Though this isn't as bad as many I've read, stories like this are the reason I have never applied to work at any of these large firms (Google, Apple, etc.). I have been a full-time developer for more than 20 years. I have 4 software patents to my name, one of which formed the basis of a startup that was acquired for $64 million. I know a few people at Facebook and Google (not at Apple), and I am definitely in the sam…

Not for Apple or Google, but I've literally been asked impossible questions during some interviews at other big-names. Maybe I should have recognized they were impossible and addressed the interviewer. They were usually very number-theory heavy problems. After a bit of research, I determined that it wasn't really answerable, and people have done PHD work at MIT, CMU, etc.. to investigate the question I was given 30 m…

One of my Google interviewers asked me to implement the AdWords analysis backend from scratch: an online, high volume (high enough to need to partition the data across some kind of distributed storage) streaming dataset with a query load that the interviewer refused to define, even when pushed.

I was a bit non-plussed at that one. Still don’t know what he was really trying to get at.

Re: My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

#243

Post by xxxyy »

roylez wrote: post #228
downandout wrote: post #135

Though this isn't as bad as many I've read, stories like this are the reason I have never applied to work at any of these large firms (Google, Apple, etc.). I have been a full-time developer for more than 20 years. I have 4 software patents to my name, one of which formed the basis of a startup that was acquired for $64 million. I know a few people at Facebook and Google (not at Apple), and I am definitely in the sam…

Sometimes it was not only intimidating. Several months ago I had interviews with apple for a devops position. While most interviewers were friendly, there was a very aggressive one. He started with "I am going to ask you some of my favorite questions", and the tone of the interview went sour. Most of the questions should be from the skill sets he was mostly proud in but remotely related to the requirements of the pos…

There is a clever trick for that: a classic bash fork bomb will completely die once it gets impossible to spawn new processes. And an easy way to achieve this is to exhaust all PIDs, usually there are 32768 available. So starting enough `sleep` processes will do the job. That is of course if you still can run at least one shell command on the machine.

Other than that the question is stupid, and most companies have a policy that forbids such questions. Same goes for "piano tuners in Manhattan" and "why are manholes round".

Re: My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

#244

Post by nsxwolf »

madez wrote: post #216
odonnellryan wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not for Apple or Google, but I've literally been asked impossible questions during some interviews at other big-names. Maybe I should have recognized they were impossible and addressed the interviewer. They were usually very number-theory heavy problems. After a bit of research, I determined that it wasn't really answerable, and people have done PHD work at MIT, CMU, etc.. to investigate the question I was given 30 m…

Maybe they intentionally asked you an impossible question that is not obviously unsolveable to see how you react when given and how you approach hard problems.

Here are your options:

1. You either know immediately that it is impossible and you say so, which means you've encountered the problem and its related research before.

2. You are a savant, like Kim Peek, and work out the solution to a PHd level research problem in your head in a few minutes, giving the answer that it is impossible.

3. Pretend to be (2) by already knowing (1), but having a good poker face and then faking an "Ah ha!" moment

4. Sit there, unsure, feeling stupid, wondering if you're supposed to know the answer to this already or if you're supposed to be smart enough to figure it out.

I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out how any of these outcomes are in any way beneficial to the interview process.

Re: My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

#245

Post by gambiting »

TickleSteve wrote: post #200
skore wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the best interview process is hiring someone as a consultant, and then converting them after a year or so Unfortunately, this is also a "great" way to keep temp employees in constant limbo with the perm job as the carrot and stick. Usually, the temp job also leaves you with a lot less money (particularly because all the perks - insurance etc. - are reserved for proper employees) and, depending on the company, that'…

Contracting in the UK typically pays close to double the equivalent permie postion... its much more profitable and there is no way I would go permie again given the choice. Honestly, quite surprised to hear its the other way around in the states. Here, contractors tend to laugh at the 'perks'... they're pretty much worthless.

In the States, as a contractor you have to pay your own health insurance,which can be ruinous. Large corporation can provide a much better package than what you could afford on your own,because they get discounts. Obviously here in the UK it doesn't matter, because you get NHS coverage either way.

Re: My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

#246

Post by MollyR »

rogy wrote: post #226
EnderMB wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a similar vein, I'd also like to know how many people manage to land jobs at the Google's and Facebook's of the world, and ultimately prove to be less-than-spectacular developers. I dropped out of a masters degree to join a startup as a .NET developer, but kept in touch with a few guys finishing there. One of them now works for Google. He was always great in the algorithm classes, and he knew his theory reasonably…

I went to University with someone who aced every written CS exam in 'software patterns', 'user experience', 'computer architecture' and the like who landed a job at Google as a software engineer straight out of uni. They couldn't complete a single practical lab exercise without help from peers or lecturers throughout the entire time I knew them. They didn't make it past their trial period.

I used to be like the person you're describing. I had such a hard time with actual software development, until a few years in, when all the theoretical knowledge "clicked". Then I was able to always make consistent gains in dev skills from the os level to higher level software architecture. I think it was because I could understand the core abstractions from the higher level ones. Though I also might be an outlier, because even out of school I study a few hours a night.

Re: My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

#247

Post by hackerboos »

collyw wrote: post #227
hackerboos wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I concur. As a contractor in the UK, you are likely not paying National Insurance contributions, are able to write off mileage and other expenses, can reduce your tax liability with dividends. Plus you'd still get access to the NHS. I'm perm at the moment, but if I was a contractor I'd be saving a significant amount of money.

You ought to be paying National Insurance.

If you own your own limited company and received income via dividends, it's not subject to NI.

Re: My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

#248

Post by oldmanjay »

abawany wrote: post #137
RandomBK wrote: post #16

This all sounds like a typical 'cultural fit' screening process. I can't speak to SV firms, but many consulting/banking firms use the same technique. It can be very frustrating at times, as you never get to find out what went wrong, especially if the interview itself felt like it went very smoothly. I just finished a long string of interviews for consulting and product management positions, and there is nothing worse…

I am saddened that as a candidate, I am expected to just go away without getting any feedback but the company in a similar situation hounds me if I happen to reject them. I don't know how to improve this situation, unfortunately.

How about ignoring their requests for feedback and doubling down on your own?

You make it sound like the only option is passive acceptance.

Re: My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

#250

Post by kayfox »

xxxyy wrote: post #243
roylez wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes it was not only intimidating. Several months ago I had interviews with apple for a devops position. While most interviewers were friendly, there was a very aggressive one. He started with "I am going to ask you some of my favorite questions", and the tone of the interview went sour. Most of the questions should be from the skill sets he was mostly proud in but remotely related to the requirements of the pos…

There is a clever trick for that: a classic bash fork bomb will completely die once it gets impossible to spawn new processes. And an easy way to achieve this is to exhaust all PIDs, usually there are 32768 available. So starting enough `sleep` processes will do the job. That is of course if you still can run at least one shell command on the machine. Other than that the question is stupid, and most companies have a…

From my experience there are three reasons these questions are asked:

1. To see what your thought process would be in figuring out the answer. 2. To judge your reaction to such a nonsensical question. 3. To show off (either the interviewer is showing off or the company is showing off).

That said, they have some value depending on the position your being interviewed for.

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