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U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

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Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#241

Post by angry_octet »

joering2 wrote: post #161
themartorana wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is even prescribed penalties against authority figures are rarely enforced. There are a few low-level people in jail for torture of prisoners, but not one administrator. Bush and Cheney should have been hauled before The Hague, much as they would have demanded of any leader of any other country that had unilaterally broken the Geneva Convention, but Obama wanted to "look forward," not backward. There is/w…

Further, the IRS is a great example how they are being "punished". The only thing you can take from them is funding. So did Congress -- took away money from IRS and brought their operational budget to those levels from 2008. And now - pick one that is correct: A) The director of IRS cut off $80MM bonuses promised to all those hard working ants that scrutinized non-profit applicants and further lost backup tapes that…

Real whistleblower protection would help. Changing the perception so that the public viewed them as heroes when they expose political malfeasance and cosy back room deals.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#242

Post by Zigurd »

mattlutze wrote: post #188
Zigurd wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a heck of an assertion. Just because there are bad people we can't know what our government does? Let's stipulate all the bad wickedness you would like me to think there is. How much of that has the actual means to threaten the US in any economically or militarily significant way? With radical transparency may find that we're harming ourselves more by overspending on security theater, and that, for all their w…

> That's a heck of an assertion. Just because there are bad people we can't know what our government does? Yes. Your intentions aren't malicious. There are many millions of people whose intentions are malicious. It takes very few of them to do you, your family, your neighbors serious harm. It shocks me how many people on this site seem to not understand that sometimes. How is it logical that a few kids in SF building…

> There are many millions of people whose intentions are malicious. It takes very few of them to do you, your family, your neighbors serious harm.

Come off it, and stop watching "24" reruns. The risk you face, I face, everyone faces, is practically nil. We all know the numbers. You have no need to pay more attention to terrorism than you pay to lightning, or slipping in the bathtub.

Moreover, this is true in places that don't have an HSA, an NSA, a CIA, or an FBI. There is no difference in outcome regarding terrorism in Latvia where they all they can afford is to deploy an anti-terrorism potato, or in Alabama, where you have camo'ed citizens armed-up and waiting for ISIS to invade.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#243

Post by orbifold »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #233
orbifold wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of defeatism is not helpful. Through history people were able to eventually overthrow much more brutal oppressors. The kind coercion used in western societies might appear to be more effective, but there is no reason to think that direct political action could not work. When it happens, like in the case of the occupy movement, you can see by the media reaction, how uncomfortable it is for the powerful. Your…

> Through history people were able to eventually overthrow much more brutal oppressors. They were more brutal because they substituted brutality in lieu of these sorts of technological innovations. They couldn't spy on everyone, so they had to crucify the few opponents they could definitively catch (or some sacrificial lambs, when they couldn't.) Not to mention, it's much easier to overthrow a brutal dictator. Your g…

Well the good thing about not living in a dictatorship is that you have freedom of expression and freedom of association. So there really isn't any need to resort to violence, at least in principle.

You are right to point out that the majority of people are just comfortable enough, struggling to pay for debts they incurred in one way or another and generally have no incentive to fight totalitarian overreach of the state.

Unfortunately the institutions for the indoctrination of the young are set up in a way by now, that they are very good at producing hyper-focused well-working replaceable cogs for industry, together with their Ayn Rand reading, libertarian overlords in one nice package. They do all that, while setting you up for a life of indebted servitude, if you don't happen to choose a profession that requires you to be highly compliant with the current system to be successful.

So I guess if there is one thing to fix it would be education, a properly educated general public would hopefully be less apathetic and compliant than it is today. Technology has the potential to make education much more widely available and independent of having to assemble in one place and be subjected to abuse and brainwashing of authority figures.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#244

Post by woodman »

orbifold wrote: post #180
woodman wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to reverse this. Trying to cage this with paperwork will just lead to more of the same creative interpretations à la NSA. So the rulers don't feel the rules apply to them, big surprise. With that in mind, the futility of fighting the tide, what is the next step? As the ideal solution of reversal is unavailable, we need to go with harm reduction - but what is the harm that we would reduce? Most would s…

This kind of defeatism is not helpful. Through history people were able to eventually overthrow much more brutal oppressors. The kind coercion used in western societies might appear to be more effective, but there is no reason to think that direct political action could not work. When it happens, like in the case of the occupy movement, you can see by the media reaction, how uncomfortable it is for the powerful. Your…

It isn't defeatism when you recognize your present course of action as being ineffective, and look for alternatives. I'd also like to know what, in your opinion, the occupy movement accomplished (aside from demonstrating how ineffective slacktivism is).

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#245

Post by Torgo »

stainednapkin wrote: post #201
woodman wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to reverse this. Trying to cage this with paperwork will just lead to more of the same creative interpretations à la NSA. So the rulers don't feel the rules apply to them, big surprise. With that in mind, the futility of fighting the tide, what is the next step? As the ideal solution of reversal is unavailable, we need to go with harm reduction - but what is the harm that we would reduce? Most would s…

You are wrong. As citizens we can grant and revoke government powers at will. Cutting off or significantly curtailing their revenue would have a similar effect. EDIT: There would need to be a concomitant cultural change as well. As it stands folks are not aware of or engaged with what their government is doing. Even if we replaced every government official today, it could quickly devolve back to its current state.

Texas tried to make TSA gate-groping unambiguously illegal, and the federal government credibly threatened to end all flights to and from Texas, causing Texas to back down.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#246

Post by woodman »

orbifold wrote: post #243
pavel_lishin wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Through history people were able to eventually overthrow much more brutal oppressors. They were more brutal because they substituted brutality in lieu of these sorts of technological innovations. They couldn't spy on everyone, so they had to crucify the few opponents they could definitively catch (or some sacrificial lambs, when they couldn't.) Not to mention, it's much easier to overthrow a brutal dictator. Your g…

Well the good thing about not living in a dictatorship is that you have freedom of expression and freedom of association. So there really isn't any need to resort to violence, at least in principle. You are right to point out that the majority of people are just comfortable enough, struggling to pay for debts they incurred in one way or another and generally have no incentive to fight totalitarian overreach of the st…

> ... libertarian overlords ...

Ok, go ahead and square that with the operation of the government today. I'm pretty confident you will find it impossible to construct a convincing argument.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#247

Post by woodman »

3beard wrote: post #230
zaroth wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way within the system is I guess the Supreme Court. They have already laid a framework establishing that tracking requires a warrant, even if it's just making the police's job more efficient and it's data they can get from a tail. If the license plate tracking gets to that point within metropolitan areas (presumably where cameras are most dense) or they start doing it from blimps or whatever, at least there…

A second way within the system is that people start to vote for politicians who are serious about privacy.

Give us a kindly king! We've got systemic issues that need to be fixed. What would you say if I suggested a form of government where you're well-being and happiness is contingent on the wisdom and industry of every other person? Yeah, not a great plan - but here we are.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#248

Post by orbifold »

woodman wrote: post #246
orbifold wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the good thing about not living in a dictatorship is that you have freedom of expression and freedom of association. So there really isn't any need to resort to violence, at least in principle. You are right to point out that the majority of people are just comfortable enough, struggling to pay for debts they incurred in one way or another and generally have no incentive to fight totalitarian overreach of the st…

> ... libertarian overlords ... Ok, go ahead and square that with the operation of the government today. I'm pretty confident you will find it impossible to construct a convincing argument.

That was a stupid choice of words... What I meant to say was neo-liberal, I guess. Since the whole comment is mostly hyperbole anyways, I will let it stand as is.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#249

Post by TeMPOraL »

orbifold wrote: post #180
woodman wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to reverse this. Trying to cage this with paperwork will just lead to more of the same creative interpretations à la NSA. So the rulers don't feel the rules apply to them, big surprise. With that in mind, the futility of fighting the tide, what is the next step? As the ideal solution of reversal is unavailable, we need to go with harm reduction - but what is the harm that we would reduce? Most would s…

This kind of defeatism is not helpful. Through history people were able to eventually overthrow much more brutal oppressors. The kind coercion used in western societies might appear to be more effective, but there is no reason to think that direct political action could not work. When it happens, like in the case of the occupy movement, you can see by the media reaction, how uncomfortable it is for the powerful. Your…

I personally question the goal of fighting it. More and more I begin to believe that it's "privacy vs. progress of mankind - choose one". Privacy for privacy's sake is not something I think is important - the problem is always with the ways lack of it could be abused. I can't see how we can save privacy without getting rid of computers - after all, even if you reduce number of sensors, the remaining void can be filled back by throwing more computing power at data you can get.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#250

Post by TeMPOraL »

woodman wrote: post #47
stegosaurus wrote: post #6

Same deal in the UK with the national ANPR system (Automatic Number Plate Recognition). Ostensibly to reduce the amount of uninsured/untaxed drivers on the roads. Don't want to sit around in databases? Well, here's a nice list of just a few of the things you can't have: Bank account; Car/motorcycle; Mobile telephone; Internet-connected computer; Credit/debit card; Visible face (oh, we might be safe there, for a few y…

There is no way to reverse this. Trying to cage this with paperwork will just lead to more of the same creative interpretations à la NSA. So the rulers don't feel the rules apply to them, big surprise. With that in mind, the futility of fighting the tide, what is the next step? As the ideal solution of reversal is unavailable, we need to go with harm reduction - but what is the harm that we would reduce? Most would s…

> It is no mystery why the Constitution included the provision allowing citizens to arm themselves with the same class of weapons that the government possessed.

It's worth noting that no longer do citizens have the ability to arm themselves with "the same class of weapons" as the government. Unless you're willing to sell APCs and cruise missiles to private parties, there's no way a rebellion can outgun country's military.

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