How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire • Hacker News Board

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#241

Post by Confusion » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:23 AM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #68

sekasi wrote: post #28

I've done a LOT of interviewing, recruiting and ultimately a lot of saying "no" to people. Over the years I've landed on a series of personal rules on how to do just that. 1. Always explain rationale around the No, to help them improve 2. Always let people down gently reinforcing positive notions as well, you never know what state of mind they are in. 3. Always respond to requests for more information This takes me a…

Then there is the perspective from having heard "no": 1. Never believe anyone's rationale regarding their "no". They acted on instinct, and made up a clever story to afterward to convince themselves it was a rational decision. Or worse: it was some prejudice that they are consciously covering up. Or perhaps some internal reasons that they don't want to discuss with outsiders like sudden news that affects all hiring a…

There is often no difference between the rationale and the instinct. Initially you subconsciously reach a rational conclusion, but you are only consciously aware of the conclusion. We call that instinct, but there is no reason why that could not have rational underpinnings. It takes some effort to get your subconscious to inform your conscious mind of the rationale. You are not conjuring up a clever story: you are discovering the clever story that was already written.

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#242

Post by tomp » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:30 AM UTC

UrMomReadsHN wrote: post #165

benihana wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not wrong in that people often rationalize their 'instinctual' choices, but to imply that nobody is cognizant of any of their thoughts or biases and that we're all slaves to our lizard brains is a bit of a stretch.

There is a TON of data out there demonstrating we all have subconscious bias. Moreso than we believe. Even of our own groups! We are slaves to our brain! This is a good summary of some of the data: http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/26/us/ferguson-racism-or-racial-b... Professors at the University of Chicago and MIT sent 5,000 fictitious resumes in response to 1,300 help wanted ads. Each resume listed identical qualification…

I'm not from the US, but don't many American blacks have white-sounding names? And I assume those blacks are more likely to come from families that are wealthier and better educated. If yes, the other explanation could be that the employers were considering the name an indication of background, i.e. a "Jamal" is more likely to come "from the hood" (poor neighborhood) than a "James".

The point is, "discrimination" is sometimes just applying statistics. Just because some statistical factors correlate with race doesn't mean one is being racist; they are just optimizing their selection process.

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#243

Post by UrMomReadsHN » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:30 AM UTC

orbitur wrote: post #201

UrMomReadsHN wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a TON of data out there demonstrating we all have subconscious bias. Moreso than we believe. Even of our own groups! We are slaves to our brain! This is a good summary of some of the data: http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/26/us/ferguson-racism-or-racial-b... Professors at the University of Chicago and MIT sent 5,000 fictitious resumes in response to 1,300 help wanted ads. Each resume listed identical qualification…

That's not a very relevant study, since you (and Ames) are just guessing at the motive. Many people are consciously racist, not in a "I want them all lynched" way, but in a "meh, I'd rather not meet with a black guy, probably a waste of time" way. Of course they aren't going to admit that sort of bias. And again, you're just guessing at what happened. There is indeed subconscious bias, and it rears its ugly head when…

It isn't "a study," It is an article summarizing a lot of the data on subconscious bias as it relates to race, specifically white/black in the US. If you read it you'd know that.

Huh? I never guessed that anything happened or guessing at any motives of anyone...?

The same resume experiment has been tested with male/female names as well.

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#244

Post by DanBC » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:36 AM UTC

tomp wrote: post #242

UrMomReadsHN wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a TON of data out there demonstrating we all have subconscious bias. Moreso than we believe. Even of our own groups! We are slaves to our brain! This is a good summary of some of the data: http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/26/us/ferguson-racism-or-racial-b... Professors at the University of Chicago and MIT sent 5,000 fictitious resumes in response to 1,300 help wanted ads. Each resume listed identical qualification…

I'm not from the US, but don't many American blacks have white-sounding names? And I assume those blacks are more likely to come from families that are wealthier and better educated. If yes, the other explanation could be that the employers were considering the name an indication of background, i.e. a "Jamal" is more likely to come "from the hood" (poor neighborhood) than a "James". The point is, "discrimination" is…

> The point is, "discrimination" is sometimes just applying statistics. Just because some statistical factors correlate with race doesn't mean one is being racist; they are just optimizing their selection process.

If your optimized selection process selects away from Black candidates it is by definition racist.

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#245

Post by tomp » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:50 AM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #244

tomp wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not from the US, but don't many American blacks have white-sounding names? And I assume those blacks are more likely to come from families that are wealthier and better educated. If yes, the other explanation could be that the employers were considering the name an indication of background, i.e. a "Jamal" is more likely to come "from the hood" (poor neighborhood) than a "James". The point is, "discrimination" is…

> The point is, "discrimination" is sometimes just applying statistics. Just because some statistical factors correlate with race doesn't mean one is being racist; they are just optimizing their selection process. If your optimized selection process selects away from Black candidates it is by definition racist.

So, is college selection process in the US racist? The process is SAT, and AFAIK blacks and Hispanics score less than whites, who score less than Asians. Is is also sexist (as more women than men study)?

I don't think so. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

Edit: also, since more Asians and less blacks are accepted at good universities, if your company relies on the name of university when selecting candidates (e.g. a candidate from Harvard is more likely to have an interview than a candidate from an unknown state school), by your logic that's racist as well.

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#246

Post by UrMomReadsHN » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:52 AM UTC

tomp wrote: post #242

UrMomReadsHN wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a TON of data out there demonstrating we all have subconscious bias. Moreso than we believe. Even of our own groups! We are slaves to our brain! This is a good summary of some of the data: http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/26/us/ferguson-racism-or-racial-b... Professors at the University of Chicago and MIT sent 5,000 fictitious resumes in response to 1,300 help wanted ads. Each resume listed identical qualification…

I'm not from the US, but don't many American blacks have white-sounding names? And I assume those blacks are more likely to come from families that are wealthier and better educated. If yes, the other explanation could be that the employers were considering the name an indication of background, i.e. a "Jamal" is more likely to come "from the hood" (poor neighborhood) than a "James". The point is, "discrimination" is…

Jesus... did you even read the article you are commenting on? It isn't just one example. And it isnt about being racist, its about racism without racists.

> One study conducted by a Brigham Young University economics professor showed that white NBA referees call more fouls on black layers, and black referees call more fouls on white players. Another study that was published in the American Journal of Sociology showed that newly released white felons experience better job hunting success than young black men with no criminal record, Ross says.

>"The overwhelming number of people will actually experience the black man as having the knife because we're more open to the notion of the black man having a knife than a white man, " Ross says. "This is one of the most insidious things about bias. People may absorb these things without knowing them."

Anyways, this kinda stuff has been shown to happen with plenty of different groups. Attractive vs ugly, fat vs normal weight, woman vs man, old vs young, tall vs short. We aren't as rational as we'd like to believe.

...And what the hell does someone coming from a poor neighborhood have anything to do with anything? I grew up poor, I don't see how that is relevant to my job skills. I'd love to knkw why I'd be optimized out of a selection process. Furthermore, your resume usually has your address on it, you don't have to guess.

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#247

Post by raverbashing » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:55 AM UTC

shortcircuit01 wrote: post #78

This story reminds me of how broken software engineer interviewing is. Imagine if a company decided to hire software engineers by giving them five 6-sided dice. Then they have to come to the company building and roll each dice once every hour. And during that hour they have to dance and sing in front of someone while being recorded. If they roll all 6 on all 5 dice, their dancing and singing will be judged by the com…

Looks like the American Idol audition

(I'm serious)

However, rolling 6 on 5 dice is 1 to 7766 odds, and I suspect AI has a lower entrance bar for the committee

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#248

Post by raverbashing » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:58 AM UTC

fecak wrote: post #43

I sometimes consult to clients on improving their hiring process. Candidate experience is now a topic that at least some companies consider. This isn't your typical candidate experience - applying for a vague job ad, being asked to answer 6 puzzle questions, invite to an open house, two days of free training and then left alone for three weeks, followed by a vote by the tribe to see who will get the job. It's definit…

"I hear quite a bit of negative feelings towards companies that ask for extensive amounts of time commitment during the hiring process"

YES

Time, Money (traveling for interviews, for example), too many/too long screening tests, etc

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#249

Post by sekasi » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 10:01 AM UTC

RobertKerans wrote: post #98

kazinator wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then there is the perspective from having heard "no": 1. Never believe anyone's rationale regarding their "no". They acted on instinct, and made up a clever story to afterward to convince themselves it was a rational decision. Or worse: it was some prejudice that they are consciously covering up. Or perhaps some internal reasons that they don't want to discuss with outsiders like sudden news that affects all hiring a…

I don't do the actual hiring, but sit in in one of the two interviews, and as a team we carefully discuss each candidate. We've got a good team, the work environment & people are great, hiring process is solid enough. And we all agree that, almost without exception, we can tell within about thirty seconds of meeting them whether someone is likely to be hired. I assume this is overwhelmingly common? Bar sending a poli…

This sounds like a terrible process.

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#250

Post by tomp » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 10:03 AM UTC

UrMomReadsHN wrote: post #246

tomp wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not from the US, but don't many American blacks have white-sounding names? And I assume those blacks are more likely to come from families that are wealthier and better educated. If yes, the other explanation could be that the employers were considering the name an indication of background, i.e. a "Jamal" is more likely to come "from the hood" (poor neighborhood) than a "James". The point is, "discrimination" is…

Jesus... did you even read the article you are commenting on? It isn't just one example. And it isnt about being racist, its about racism without racists. > One study conducted by a Brigham Young University economics professor showed that white NBA referees call more fouls on black layers, and black referees call more fouls on white players. Another study that was published in the American Journal of Sociology showed…

> did you even read the article you are commenting on?

No, I was just commenting on the logic of the quote in the parent comment, which I find faulty. I'm not saying people aren't racist, or subconsciously racist; I'm just saying that you can't reduce any statistical effect down to racist, while other explanations are just as possible.

> And what the hell does someone coming from a poor neighborhood have anything to do with anything?

I'm pretty sure that if you run statistics, you would find out that people from poor neighborhoods are more likely to be criminals, violent, less educated, less intelligent. Is it their fault? No, obviously not - they were never given a chance to excel (or rather, they had to overcome many more obstacles). But I think it's the responsibility of the government (or charities) to help such people, while it's the responsibility of a business to, well, do business, with the best employees it can hire.

Btw, I'm not saying that you should take the above into account. I just oppose the logic that it's always "racism". Because then you could equally say, it's racist to prefer people from Harvard, because Harvard discriminates against people from bad neighborhoods, because they have lower SAT scores.

> Furthermore, your resume usually has your address on it, you don't have to guess.

Oh, I didn't know. Mine doesn't.