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Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

spiegel.de

241–250 of 310 posts

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#241

If I were a rich software engineer feeling angry at people who criticised the capitalist system we had, perhaps whilst failing to acknowledge that people in America die because they can't pay health insurance, or are homeless because they can't afford housing, or end up eating what they find in someone's trash because they can't afford to buy food, I think that I'd do one thing: I'd consider whether perhaps I might b…

or are homeless because they can't afford housing, or end up eating what they find in someone's trash because they can't afford to buy food

There's a bit of a straw man or, at least, mischaracterization hidden in here. It's true that the U.S. does a pretty poor job of dealing with the mentally ill and those at the very bottom who simply cannot take care of themselves. And I think if you push people, even those on the far right, they'll acknowledge that we probably need to do something to help those people.

But, outside of this group, nobody is digging through trash for food. We live in a society where clothes and food are as cheap as they've ever been. And there are government programs to fill the gaps. Arguments like yours only further distance you from the people you're trying to convince, because it's obvious to just about anyone, including (especially?) those who have actually been poor, that they're just not true. I've been poor. And it sucks. It sucks for lots of reasons, all related to access to resources, lack of successful friends and coworkers, its drain on your motivation, and so on and so on. But I never feared missing a meal. That's not the experience of most poor folks in the U.S.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#242
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not about envy, and you sound very condescending to me by calling the issues these people have 'envy'. This is about serious mental illness caused by a perception of enormous inequality. Envy is just an emotion, not a way of life. The cause of their problems is not just from celebrity news or politics. It's the very society we live in. You can't just ban advertisements for cars, or decide that cars can't look…

I don't know what you mean by "serious mental illness" or "way of life". You seem to be describing negative feelings, specifically a longing aroused by qualities someone else has. That's envy, according to the standard definition. If you'd rather use the a different term to avoid inspiring negative feelings about me, feel free to suggest one. For the remainder of this post I'll use the term "Mind State X" to describe…

I'm of the opinion that, as with all things, the degree to which something happens is relevant. I'm saying that the way these people live, 'as if in perpetual envy', is no longer a form of envy. It's something different.

And yes, this means that inequality is bad in and of itself.

What the difference is is clearly outlined in the report I previously posted:

"It is abundantly clear that the chronic stress of struggling with material disadvantage is intensified to a very considerable degree by doing so in more unequal societies. An extensive body of research confirms the relationship between inequality and poorer outcomes, a relationship which is evident at every position on the social hierarchy and is not confined to developed nations. "

"Mental health, resilience and inequalities Box 9: Poverty and powerlessness It is evident that the consequences of an individualized view of poverty can often be devastating.... The sheer lack of respect and understanding given to the disadvantaged in Britain is highly corrosive of wellbeing, and all the more so because it is constant and overwhelming. We have had welfare recipients tell us how every interaction they have with the official welfare world is negative: no one has a good word to say to them; they spend hours shuttling between agencies in grimy offices that reinforce their powerlessness. Their time is of no account because they are considered to be of no account. Jones et al 2006 p. 439"

And finally:

"Economic analysis based on WHO data on the global burden of disease (see Box 4) suggests that of the total health burden, just under half is attributable to premature mortality and just over half to non- fatal outcomes (morbidity and disability). Mental illness, including suicide, accounts for less than 5% of all premature mortality but for over 30% of all morbidity and disability. No other health condition (apart from cardiovascular disease) accounts for more than 10% of the total burden of disease within the population (WHO 2005; 2006)"

These are the mental, and apparently also physical, problems I'm talking about. And they are the result of inequality, be it perceived or real.

As for your example, you seem to want me to agree with you that you should 'prevent her from sleeping with someone else'. Which would be a morally apprehensible thing to do.

I'll stop you right there, in no way is your sexual life in any way comparable to the way poverty impacts the mental wellbeing of people. I'd call what you sketch in your example envy. But that is not what these people are suffering from.

As for your idea of residential segregation, this seems to be another try to 'hide' the inequality. You're still attacking the perception instead of the real problem. I restate that you can't hide the inequality in our society. Say you do separate (forcibly?) all poor people from the rest. How do you stop them from seeing the people on TV? Radio? On the street, where they work?

Even if you somehow work it so that there's absolutely no contact between the former poor people and the rest of society, you've only succeeded in sawing of 1 rung from the ladder. Will you do the same with the new 'bottom rung'? As outlined in the rapport and by me, the issue is not wealth in absolute, it's the perceived gap in wealth between you and your peers, the people you see on tv that are no different from you except they got wealth and you don't.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#243
post #17

This is an important article, but I doubt there will be a useful discussion of it here. The developed world has incredible productive capacity. With 1% of the workforce in agriculture and 8% in manufacturing, the US produces as much stuff as China. There are no significant shortages of any manufactured good anywhere in the developed world. Quality is pretty good across the board, too. This is unique in history. That'…

"Capitalism is producing a large number of poor people competing for a shrinking pool of low-paying jobs"

Some questions:

Is this situation new in history? Is this a transitory state? Is this related to corruption? How can find a new job those that wered cancellet out because automatization?

Do we really control our future?

Are our goverments trying really to find solution to those problems, that is allocating the necessary resources to dealt with those problems?

Some people could think that making it difficult for people to live in a country increase productivity in the sense that people are disponed to work more for less pay, macroeconomically this can make sense but what about those that can stand up?

Do we really vote with our heart or are we at the end of the day voting to continue living in a such competitive system that no one knowns were it is heading?

Here in Spain, I sometimes consider that people don't value really how well we are with low tuition rates and free health care. Without being able to value what's really important is very difficult to design any kind of sensible approach to solve the really important problems we face.

Perhaps any of those questions can be answered?, I don't know.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#244
post #233

If I were a rich software engineer feeling angry at people who criticised the capitalist system we had, perhaps whilst failing to acknowledge that people in America die because they can't pay health insurance, or are homeless because they can't afford housing, or end up eating what they find in someone's trash because they can't afford to buy food, I think that I'd do one thing: I'd consider whether perhaps I might b…

With both, private and public spending, it is not the quantity that matters, but quality. Both sometimes waste money, and that's what needs to be addressed. More government does not solve anything as long as that additional spending finances bureaucracy. Since the most cost-effective governments are normally also the smallest, my personal view is that one should spend less on the federal level, but more on the local…

That can make it difficult to implement consistent standards that are not subject to the whims of local politicians.

There are also economies of scale that are difficult to achieve on a local level. Drug purchasing, for example. A federal government is going to have far more negotiating power.

But I take your point. Perhaps the right answer is that laws and oversight are the domain of the federal government, and implementation is local.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, just for starters, they're suffering from entirely treatable diseases and injuries... If that were the case, the increasing access to health care should make them healthier. It didn't. http://www.nber.org/oregon/ Do you have evidence for childhood malnutrition? Once you come up with a definition of "rotting, roach-infested", feel free to check what fraction of poor Americans actually fit that definition. See ta…

So, what is the answer? Wait for poor-people parity? We can only move forward in the US if all of the other poor people in the world are at the same level? And, if that is the case, which direction do we go? Do we push the poor people in the US down or raise up the poor people elsewhere or a combination of both? I'd rather raise others up while helping our own. Free markets are fine as long as they don't become a rac…

You've forgotten the original question. The question was whether we should harm very poor people in other countries in order to benefit not very poor at all people in the US.

I argued that it would be horrendously immoral to do so.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, just for starters, they're suffering from entirely treatable diseases and injuries... If that were the case, the increasing access to health care should make them healthier. It didn't. http://www.nber.org/oregon/ Do you have evidence for childhood malnutrition? Once you come up with a definition of "rotting, roach-infested", feel free to check what fraction of poor Americans actually fit that definition. See ta…

So, what is the answer? Wait for poor-people parity? We can only move forward in the US if all of the other poor people in the world are at the same level? And, if that is the case, which direction do we go? Do we push the poor people in the US down or raise up the poor people elsewhere or a combination of both? I'd rather raise others up while helping our own. Free markets are fine as long as they don't become a rac…

[deleted]

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of going on but the point is to single out symptoms from root causes. Otherwise we will wallow trying to deal with symptoms forever. Dunno if anyone has yet mentioned one of the basic contradictions inherent in capitalism which could very well be at the root of what we experience. Means of production are private (factories, etc) and the owners as almost all players in capitalism take care to maximize…

I'm not tremendously impressed with Marx's analysis. Here is my initial premise. Across the entire economy, current consumption is paid for by current production, with any difference buffered by available filled stockpiles and empty stockpile capacity. If you eat an ear of corn, someone has to grow an ear of corn, and transport it to you. If that person grows more corn than other people want to eat, it has to be stor…

Interesting point of view. Just some notes on the rich spending: (I don't have time to find refs but that should be pretty easy) numbers show that rich spend a tiny proportion of their money compared to other classes. So they are effectively hoarding. Also they invest mostly at the only place that can give them returns over 3%(?) nowadays which is stock markets, etc (1). Real investments in industry/services that would translate to jobs are sparse in Western world. That's also part of the problem for Westerners debt problem which could be seen as a way to mitigate the effect of industry and services (real production that is) going to Asia (mainly).

So, I'm afraid that if you expect things to change via rich themselves changing their ways (e.g. see the light and start redistributing their own wealth) you're gonna wait for long. After all just imagine being one of them. Why invest in the declining west with worker wages say 50% more expensive than in China? Never mind that competition will inevitably do the same thing to undercut you and this will end only when both of you are out of customers. In some ways, as a rich man, you can see the customers/labor as a dwindling common source where the tragedy of the commons apply under the rules of the capitalism.

(1) That's not to put a distinction between good industrialists that create jobs and bad bankers that create hot air. For one thing they largely are the same people and even if they were not they still have to play the game to stay ahead of competition.

PS: I bear no affiliation to this page but it seems to explain the point I'm trying to make much better than my limited English can: http://www.massline.org/PolitEcon/crises/Crises01.htm

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#249

If I were a rich software engineer feeling angry at people who criticised the capitalist system we had, perhaps whilst failing to acknowledge that people in America die because they can't pay health insurance, or are homeless because they can't afford housing, or end up eating what they find in someone's trash because they can't afford to buy food, I think that I'd do one thing: I'd consider whether perhaps I might b…

or are homeless because they can't afford housing, or end up eating what they find in someone's trash because they can't afford to buy food There's a bit of a straw man or, at least, mischaracterization hidden in here. It's true that the U.S. does a pretty poor job of dealing with the mentally ill and those at the very bottom who simply cannot take care of themselves. And I think if you push people, even those on the…

> But I never feared missing a meal. That's not the experience of most poor folks in the U.S.

I'm not an expert on the U.S. However, I have seen people digging through trash for food in Atlanta. I have also seen the extreme state of homelessness in Philadelphia, and the problems in San Francisco.

It is certainly true that many people in the UK struggle to afford food [1], and given that the US has a much greater disparity of wealth, I assume that the US has this problem on a great scale.

So, no, I don't agree that it is an exaggeration.

[1] http://www.trusselltrust.org/foodbank-projects

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#250
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, I can't shake the feeling that if you took away all my money and property, I would be employed and back in an apartment in a month. What's a guy to think, when folks complain about how its too hard to move, to get an education, to save money, when I know I can do it? Its hard to empathize with people with an outlook so different, that they can't imagine working their way out of poverty. Because I can.

Well, let's take away all your money and property, give you three kids under 6, diabetes, dental problems, and a disabled spouse with a felony so you can't get housing assistance without leaving the spouse. That would be a more accurate representation of the difficulties people face. I would definitely watch that experiment and I think people would support it on Kickstarter. (People don't want to support the actual f…

Definitely it would work better to be young, single and healthy. But aren't there an enormous demographic of just such people in poverty, jobless? That's what I was failing to empathize with.
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