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Spidermonkey has passed V8 on Octane performance

robert.ocallahan.org

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Re: Spidermonkey has passed V8 on Octane performance

#241

Post by amaks »

MichaelGG wrote: post #39
rdtsc wrote: post #3

I have been very impressed by Firefox lately. Kudos to the whole team at Mozilla. Just about 5 years ago, it was looking to me like it was the end of Firefox. It was Chrome all the way. New features were coming out one after another. Faster rendering. Safe process isolation for each tab. Looked better. But I just switched back last month. It happened kind of randomly. Saw an announcement of a new release ( 33, I thin…

Same here. Especially as Google becomes more and more evil, Chrome looks less attractive. Even on mobile, I use FF, despite it needing a lot of work and having a lot of rendering and input issues. And Chrome on Android looks very sexy. On desktop, FF is fine, once more. Rust is also one of the most promising languages with a potentially massive impact on the world. Not only safer software, but exposing more programme…

As a side question, I'm curious why you think that Google is becoming "more and more" evil? There are products like Cultural Institute, google.org, and many others which prove just the opposite.

Re: Spidermonkey has passed V8 on Octane performance

#242

Post by irv »

piyush_soni wrote: post #234

I still use Firefox as my main browser, but while it has improved a lot in recent times, I don't know why are some root problems not getting fixed - memory hogging, browser hangs, crashes (yes, I still get them on my workstation - I've even reported the callstacks to them). Mostly, the answer is, "It's your add-ons" - oh yes, but when it comes to talking about their strengths, this is one of the first things they tal…

memory is has been getting better over the years, thanks to the memshrink project though. https://www.areweslimyet.com/

Re: Spidermonkey has passed V8 on Octane performance

#243

Post by MichaelGG »

amaks wrote: post #241
MichaelGG wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. Especially as Google becomes more and more evil, Chrome looks less attractive. Even on mobile, I use FF, despite it needing a lot of work and having a lot of rendering and input issues. And Chrome on Android looks very sexy. On desktop, FF is fine, once more. Rust is also one of the most promising languages with a potentially massive impact on the world. Not only safer software, but exposing more programme…

As a side question, I'm curious why you think that Google is becoming "more and more" evil? There are products like Cultural Institute, google.org, and many others which prove just the opposite.

Across Google products, the UIs seem intent on getting users to reveal and allow themselves to be tracked. Google appears to want to downplay this and get people in the mindset of giving out personal details.

See my other comments, but things like swapping OK/Cancel when a Chrome user attempts to enable DNT fit right into "evil". Really, how does one excuse adding a dark pattern like that? Even though DNT is bad, Google shouldn't resort to trickery to juke the stats.

Edit: A Chrome dev in this thread says this was fixed and just an artifact of how the UI code is in Chrome. Well that makes me look foolish.

I'm not a huge fan of the evil terminology, as it sounds melodramatic and it's easy to dismiss anyone saying "evil" in such contexts. I use it because Google chose that word.

On a less objective point, everytime I use a Google service, I feel icky. It's bad enough that I'm working on the one missing app I want so I can switch to Windows Phone. (MS has problems, but between their internal legal oversight and inability to execute, I don't feel icky with them. Apple is also a choice, but I just really hate the UI and poor development tools.)

Re: Spidermonkey has passed V8 on Octane performance

#244

Post by nsajko »

carussell wrote: post #197
jfoutz wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it actually whoever will pay the most to be the default search? I mean, I <3 google search, but i'd bet microsoft could pony up quite a bit of cash as well.

Once upon a time, you could come across a post like this and confidently respond to it by pointing out that, no, Google's position as the default search engine in Firefox is not for sale to the highest bidder. So that even if, e.g.: a) the "deal" with Google had never happened, and b) Microsoft came out of nowhere and began offering to pay what Google is actually presently paying (or, let's say, just for fun, even do…

What's changed?

Re: Spidermonkey has passed V8 on Octane performance

#245

Post by sphink »

malandrew wrote: post #125
rdtsc wrote: post #3

I have been very impressed by Firefox lately. Kudos to the whole team at Mozilla. Just about 5 years ago, it was looking to me like it was the end of Firefox. It was Chrome all the way. New features were coming out one after another. Faster rendering. Safe process isolation for each tab. Looked better. But I just switched back last month. It happened kind of randomly. Saw an announcement of a new release ( 33, I thin…

TBH, the fact that bookmarking has not been completely separated from browsers makes me very sad. I know I can use a cloud service like pinboard.in. A universal bookmark sharing format would make the world a much better place. The fact that importing and exporting is still a thing sucks. Give me a content addressable store upon which multiple indices and management tools can be built and give me a way to choose how t…

I don't want my bookmarking completely separated from browsers, but I would like it to sync to shared browser-portable cloud storage. I'd also like the distinction between tabs, bookmarks, and history to go away and be replaced by some categories that are more relevant to me.

Re: Spidermonkey has passed V8 on Octane performance

#246

Post by cwyers »

taf2 wrote: post #32
skrowl wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been reminding everyone I know who still uses Chrome to try Firefox again. Many have switched back. It's simply a better browser. One e10s is in stable, it's going to be even better. Google is a for-profit company that makes money selling your data and targeted, personal ads. Mozilla is not-for-profit and just wants to make the web better.

I don't think there is actually any evidence they use Chrome for much more than 1. disrupt IE/MS - i can say for certain they originally backed Firefox for this effort and only decided to split away to build chrome in the first place because they felt starting fresh they could build a better core and i believe they did. 2. enabling more people to build on the web, enables more of their ads to be shown. Firefox achiev…

Disrupting MS is a big goal of Google's, but that ambition runs far beyond displacing IE. Google, via Chrome (and ChromeOS) and their online services, wants to displace Windows, Office and Exchange. Firefox helped (and still helps) to fend of Microsoft's browser share, but development of Chrome is what Google is using to push browsers towards being able to replace Windows and Office for enterprise customers.

Re: Spidermonkey has passed V8 on Octane performance

#247

Post by magicalist »

bzbarsky wrote: post #238
cromwellian wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Safari never had the marketshare to make its JIT a 'threat'. Besides, Chrome didn't just introduce V8, it also introduced a cleaner UI, sandboxed tabs, and eventually, a much better set of DevTools than any other browser. To deny that competition from Chrome didn't put pressure on other vendors I think is trying to willfully discount it's contributions for political, not technical reasons.

There's a difference between "Chrome put pressure on other vendors" (which is clearly true) and "Chrome kicked off the browser performance wars, especially Javascript" (which is the statement I was responding to upthread). Chrome obviously put pressure on other vendors in various areas, including performance. What just isn't true is that without Chrome there would have been no JS performance competition. Whether the…

To be totally fair, Brendan Eich has stated that he was well aware that Lars Bak et al were working on V8 years before Chrome was announced (and Bak's involvement implied the implementation direction that V8 was likely to head towards). I'm sure that knowledge was known elsewhere as well.

The problem with this discussion is inherent in any counterfactual history, as you point out, and the common issue of what appears to be revolutionary to people outside a domain vs merely implementing things people have discussed for years, as the same "revolution" appears to people inside that domain.

The reality is that circa-2008 JS engines were fairly rudimentary, including (or especially) V8, and your average JIT compiler writer at the time would have been less impressed and more compelled to question why this "revolution" hadn't happened years earlier (and several did ask exactly that).

All that said, "Chrome put pressure on other vendors" has been extremely important to the evolution of JS performance, especially with Crankshaft -- I think it's extremely likely that shipping Firefox would still have a tracing JIT today and would be just starting to move past it without Crankshaft having existed -- but Chrome in that slot vs the other major browsers is really not that meaningful a distinction either, as without SpiderMonkey existing, it's likely that V8's major strides forward would have stopped with Crankshaft in 2010. Performance would have continued to improve in either (especially with JSC making big improvements), but I don't think we'd have seen the major architectural changes as often as we have without that pressure. Competition is great.

Re: Spidermonkey has passed V8 on Octane performance

#248

Post by sphink »

notastartup wrote: post #100

You know whats funny, I stopped using Chrome and use Firefox now because Firefox is so much faster. The exact same reason I switched to Chrome 5 years ago. Also I'm slightly less creeped out.

I think this is pretty common. In fact, this can happen even if neither browser changes at all. Your profile builds up and your history searches etc. slow down, so you switch browsers and get a clean profile to start with. Repeat. (I'm not saying that that is what you are experiencing, but I think it's a factor for every browser user.)

Re: Spidermonkey has passed V8 on Octane performance

#249

Post by MichaelGG »

zetafunction wrote: post #240
MichaelGG wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the mindset that ends up with Chrome going out of its way to swap OK/Cancel when you enable DNT? (I don't think DNT is a real solution, but I'd guess Google wants to be able to point to data showing users don't enable it.) What's the mindset behind the broken permissions on Android? Where any app that wants to change behavior when you get a call must request permission to your IMEI and calling/called number? O…

> What's the mindset that ends up with Chrome going out of its way to swap OK/Cancel when you enable DNT? Chrome dev here. The way the Chrome settings web UI is written does not lend itself to strong consistency, just eventual, as devs notice it and fix it. Your DNT example was fixed last week in https://codereview.chromium.org/665113003 . Another example of inconsistent button ordering: the overlay for disconnecting…

Damn. I guess this just goes to show how hard it is for an external observer to judge intent. I mean, you gotta admit that between the long, scary warning and flipping the buttons around compared to other privacy related settings, it certainly seems like a dark pattern. But I've been on the receiving end of this, so I understand how frustrating this must be. "No, really, it was late and one line got pasted in front of another and no one noticed."

I guess that just leaves the fundamental incompatibility with Google's current business model and personal privacy.

Re: Spidermonkey has passed V8 on Octane performance

#250

Post by 0942v8653 »

espadrine wrote: post #164
0942v8653 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

uhh… with any "omnibox" UI in any browser, every keystroke is sent to Google.

Based on my current knowledge, I believe you are wrong. Firefox' Desktop Awesomebar (which actually predates Chrome's omnibox) does not send every keystroke to Google[0], and never has. Even Firefox' Mobile Awesomebar doesn't do that[1] unless you click that "Yes" button. On the other hand, Google's Chrome browser is clear about the fact that it does send everything in the omnibar[2]: > When you type URLs or queries…

Huh. Your first link says nothing about search suggestions. I based my comment on my experience of having to disable search suggestions every time I start a new browser. I hope you're right…
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