The Unexotic Underclass • Hacker News Board

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#241

Post by derefr » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 6:16 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #230

tedunangst wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Corruption in city hall" is front page news all the time.

Which goes to show that exposing it in the "frong page" doesn't do much to stop it.

There is a difference between stopping an instance of a problem, and an entire species of problem. Just because the species of problem (municipal political corruption) persists in various forms, doesn't mean any individual corrupt politician will get off scot-free. They go down all the time, removing the particular barriers they had put in place.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#242

Post by exelius » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 6:22 PM UTC

tsunamifury wrote: post #164

I built language learning applications that reached over 10 million users in the developing world and my brother built a startup that employs only ex-cons in one of the worst neighborhoods in America. We learned a few things from actually doing this: TL;DR its really expensive to make products for the 'forgotten underclass' due to many unforeseen issues. 1) Poor areas are overrun with corruption and graft. Its very h…

One other thing here: credit. It relates to #5, but drastically increases the cost of doing business.

The "unexotic underclass" tends to not be very prompt at paying their bills. They often don't have credit cards (or even enough credit to get one), so the typical billing mechanisms are out of the question. Things get prioritized, and a lot of people will choose to let their bills go to collections before they pay them (if ever).

Sending debt to collections means you only get about 50% of what you're owed (and sometimes far less). It's usually not even worth going after people for less than $100. If this happens to even a small percentage of your customers, it can wipe out all of your profits.

There's a reason nobody goes after the "underclass" at any scale: even a minor downturn in the economy can cause a large spike in the payment delinquency rate. The only companies that seem to have success with these customers border on criminal enterprises: places like payday loan shops, pawn shops, etc. are popular because they provide temporary relief for the biggest problem most of these people have: where is the money for rent going to come from?

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#243

Post by angersock » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 6:30 PM UTC

disjointrevelry wrote: post #104

The article boils down to a basic fact: "The unexotic underclass are unexploitable." Despite all the dancing around this fact, it pops out in the article like a pimple on an ivy leaguing debutant's nose in their weekly dermotalogist face cleansing. There is more than a hint of the populist a. randist philosophy throughout this article. Maybe this is a cult, and it goes without saying. The privileged group (such as th…

The unexploitable is a sad, basic fact--our system is set up to move heaven and earth to facilitate the transfer of wealth out of people who've accumulated it.

If you have little or no wealth, hardcore free-market civilizations have little to offer you.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#244

Post by chillingeffect » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 6:42 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #189

chillingeffect wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> all these people really want and need is money, In my opinion, all they really want and need is _land_. The real people squeezing everyone else are the landowners, and the landlords. With enough land, anyone can support themselves: chickens, vegetables, hunting and fishing, etc. Mortgages in exchange for housing ("death pledges") exploit the poor, indenturing them to overemployment at insufficient wages. The novelt…

Hey! I'm a landowner! I didn't know I was ruling by security/fear. Wow! I should make myself some jackboots or something. No kidding aside, in the USA anybody can own land who wants to. That seems too convenient a variable to tag all the social ills on.

Well are you going to sell your land at a price poor people can afford or only the wealthy? You're going to sell it for the "best" (measured by maximizing dollar amount) price you can.

So, read my comment carefully, you're not ruling by security/fear, you're squeezing the poor by playing along with market rules, you big squeezing squeezer.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#245

Post by jimbokun » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 6:50 PM UTC

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #200

jerf wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The propaganda about the poor's lack of access to health care is also overstated for various political reasons. Note the difference between "overstated" and "false", and I'll even more explicitly say that that isn't proof that everything's hunky dory and nothing needs to be changed. But it's hardly like it's paradise for the poor in Europe and in the US you're just left out on your own... it's way more nuanced than t…

> The propaganda about the poor's lack of access to health care is also overstated for various political reasons. Brit here. Enlighten me as to how not being able to afford to visit a GP is 'overstated'. As I understand it, if you are poor in the USA, there's a real chance you won't be able to pay for the pills you need, or for mental health treatment, etc. That simply doesn't happen here in the UK. > Everybody's boo…

Can't speak for jerf, but the "overstated" part may relate to the definition of "poor".

The U.S. government does provide health care programs for people below a certain income threshold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid

The trouble comes when you are just over the threshold, but still can't afford health insurance, or just didn't bother to sign up. Or have insurance, but the part it didn't cover bankrupts you anyway.

So if we exclude those people from the "poor" category, perhaps "the poor's lack of access to health care is also overstated" makes a little more sense.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#246

Post by garrettgrimsley » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 6:59 PM UTC

facepalm wrote: post #120

jonrimmer wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government being a lucrative market isn't the same as single mothers being a lucrative market. And yes, you can make money from an underclass by exploiting people's weaknesses for sugar, fast food, gambling, alcohol, drugs etc. But then you're not solving their problems, you're adding to them.

Sure, I wouldn't want that. But it shows you can sell stuff to the poor and make a profit. If you can sell them crap, it seems likely you could also sell them useful things. The mothers: where I live the single moms are often on welfare (at least the media says so), that's why I thought of the government. Because the government feeds them directly. So if you could convince the government that every mother needs X (I…

You are still selling things to the government in your example. The final recipient of the product may be the mother, but your pitch is to the government.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#247

Post by smtddr » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 7:07 PM UTC

tsunamifury wrote: post #236

tsunamifury wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't continue, partly because I had predetermined risk going into this (Strongly recommend a dollar figure in loss and time limit before you try helping society) and partly because I just burned out. Google reached out to me, and after a short interview made me an offer. My significant other and I are now officially 1%er DINKS over night and are constantly working on what it means to continue to do good in our…

My great worry is we are doing what our educated class always has done. We try to help, get scared off when we get too close, then retreat to our safe enclaves of high pay and social walls -- then close the door behind us. I feel so guilty about this it keeps me up at night. My only hope is that we can somehow continue to thrive, but keep the door open to anyone who wants to be a part of it.

Don't feel guilty; it's not a problem that can be solved overnight or only by a small handful of wealthy people. It's going to require a shift & change of thinking by society in general. It's going to happen very slowly and it starts with people like you showing compassion & understanding; instead of making comments like this[1]. When you have conversations with other wealthy & powerful people, you'll be able to correct them when they make negative stereotypes comments about the poor. Slowly, very slowly, your knowledge of what it _really_ means to be poor and all the corruption around it will help others at your economic level understand what it's like down there. That kind of knowledge has an effect on decision-making and when wealthy & powerful people make decisions, it affects us all. Hopefully some people in your social circle have shown at least a little interest in knowing about your experiences.

Consider writing a book. It sounds like you have enough material to do it.

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8255165

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#248

Post by jimbokun » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 7:13 PM UTC

tinco wrote: post #76

I would really love to cater to the unexotic underclass, but how? I mean he goes on and on about how much opportunity there is, but I don't see it. I know how to get 500 white liberal suburbanite young males to pay me $10 per month. They have the money and they love to spend it on tech and gadgetry that makes their lives even more comfortable. But single house mothers? Poor Romanians? How would I even get them to pay…

The best example I can think of in this category is Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University.

http://www.daveramsey.com/fpu

It's a comprehensive course on putting your finances in order. $100 per person or family taking the course. Scholarships often offered to callers to his show and others who demonstrate motivation but lack of means to pay.

Many Americans are poor not due to having no income, but getting themselves into too much debt through scams like credit cards and student loans.

Of course this is also useful to people with decent incomes, which means the business is not exclusively reliant on the low income market.

Maybe that's one trick for serving the "unexotic underclass", a problem experienced by enough non-poor people to pay the bills, but also offered to poor people at a lower price or free.

Maybe there are some high income single mothers to subsidize a business solving a problem experienced by all single mothers? Etc.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#249

Post by skybrian » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 7:17 PM UTC

tsunamifury wrote: post #225

heironimus wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very well said. I greatly respect you for what you are doing/have been doing. It's obvious from your comments that you are not just talking nice, but have been there. I'm pretty sure no one has responded because no one knows how to respond to your bleak ending. Probably because it exposes our selfishness. I know I don't know what to say. Do you have any further info about the work you and your brother are doing/have…

I couldn't continue, partly because I had predetermined risk going into this (Strongly recommend a dollar figure in loss and time limit before you try helping society) and partly because I just burned out. Google reached out to me, and after a short interview made me an offer. My significant other and I are now officially 1%er DINKS over night and are constantly working on what it means to continue to do good in our…

Unfortunately 40k per person isn't likely to get the attention of the someone trying to maximize the amount of good done per dollar (those of us who follow GiveWell) when the money would go further with the charities they currently recommend. The "exotic underclass" has the "advantage" if you can call it that of benefiting a lot from small amounts of money per person, so you can help more people.

We need different arguments for why we should help people closer to us. One reason might be that it's less abstract than people in a different country that you'll never meet, but I think that argument needs to be developed.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#250

Post by wglb » Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 7:25 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #161

rmc wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"agenda": The word you use when you want to dismiss someone's issues without actually addressing them. Most of your questions are answered here: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/01/richard... "Why does she have a child?" News for you: Sometimes people's circumstances can change. It's impossible to be sure you're income will be stable for 20 years.

I was actually surprised when I read the summary, because that would be a surprising level of poverty in the US. If anything, we are unnecessarily generous with the food stamps here. (Which I am not necessarily complaining about, just observing that they are relatively easy to get.) And lo, it turns out this was in Britain, so saying they can't afford $44 is sort of deceptive. I well believe she couldn't afford £44.…

I live in the Midwest and I don't know anyone living in abject poverty But if you looked, I am sure you would see it. The organization http://www.embarcchicago.org/ works with kids who live a couple of miles from Lake Michigan, but have never seen it, nor have they seen a supermarket.

This is not a political thing.