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Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

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Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#241

Post by dragonwriter »

Alupis wrote: post #240
poof131 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For all we know, the OP sat around and did nothing productive." Working his network to help get a startup's first few customers at large, brand name companies? I'd hardly call that unproductive. In fact, if they iterate product dev on one of these customers, find that perfect product market fit, and scale; well, I'd say he played a roll in their success. "Perhaps there were issues the OP is completely unaware of?" T…

> The company could be totally justified letting him go, just not in the manner in which they did it. How so? They decided he was not a good fit, by his own admission... so they cut him loose. Would you rather they hurt their business by keeping on employees who won't work out? > One, you can't be terminated for any reason. Yes you can. California has At-Will Employment. It means they can hire or fire for any reason,…

> > One, you can't be terminated for any reason.

> Yes you can. California has At-Will Employment. It means they can hire or fire for any reason

No, it means that the initial burden is on the person alleging illegal firing or not-hiring to establish a prima facie case that the reason was a prohibited reason, rather than the burden being the hiring/firing party to establish that the reason was a permitted reason.

It does not mean that hiring/firing for any reason is allowed. In fact, there are lots of prohibited reasons for firing in California.

It's just "default allow" when it comes to hiring/firing decisions.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#242

Post by Alupis »

jowiar wrote: post #205
Alupis wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you are in California. California has At-Will employment -- so they can hire and fire you for any reason whenever they want. "You weren't a good fit", "You didn't think Big enough", "You didn't produce enough", etc etc etc. Coming on here and ranting and trying to bring some action against the startup is not a good way to handle this. You feel wronged -- I'm sure the founders feel it was a good business deci…

> they can hire and fire you for any reason whenever they want Legally? Sure. Ethically? No. > I'm sure the founders feel it was a good business decision. The next founders who contemplate pulling a cowardly stunt like this shouldn't feel it to be a good business decision. As it stands, this reflects terribly YC and its startups as a whole.

What would reflect worse on YC is them compelling a startup to keep a bad hire who could ultimately cost the business dearly.

Hiring for first stage startups is critically important -- ie. it can make or break the company.

If the OP wasn't going to work out for any reason, then it was appropriate to cut him loose as soon as possible, instead of dragging it out.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#243

Post by Alupis »

dragonwriter wrote: post #241
Alupis wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The company could be totally justified letting him go, just not in the manner in which they did it. How so? They decided he was not a good fit, by his own admission... so they cut him loose. Would you rather they hurt their business by keeping on employees who won't work out? > One, you can't be terminated for any reason. Yes you can. California has At-Will Employment. It means they can hire or fire for any reason,…

> > One, you can't be terminated for any reason. > Yes you can. California has At-Will Employment. It means they can hire or fire for any reason No, it means that the initial burden is on the person alleging illegal firing or not-hiring to establish a prima facie case that the reason was a prohibited reason, rather than the burden being the hiring/firing party to establish that the reason was a permitted reason. It d…

Terminating because the employee was not working out is not a prohibited reason.

Terminating based on say, race or sex, is however. That is very clearly not the case here.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#244

Post by dragonwriter »

Alupis wrote: post #243
dragonwriter wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > One, you can't be terminated for any reason. > Yes you can. California has At-Will Employment. It means they can hire or fire for any reason No, it means that the initial burden is on the person alleging illegal firing or not-hiring to establish a prima facie case that the reason was a prohibited reason, rather than the burden being the hiring/firing party to establish that the reason was a permitted reason. It d…

Terminating because the employee was not working out is not a prohibited reason. Terminating based on say, race or sex, is however. That is very clearly not the case here.

> Terminating because the employee was not working out is not a prohibited reason.

Its not even a reason, its just a semantically empty phrase. But in any case, I didn't say there was a prohibited reason here, I said that the claim that "at-will employment" means you can hire or fire "for any reason" is false.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#245

Post by Alupis »

dragonwriter wrote: post #244
Alupis wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terminating because the employee was not working out is not a prohibited reason. Terminating based on say, race or sex, is however. That is very clearly not the case here.

> Terminating because the employee was not working out is not a prohibited reason. Its not even a reason, its just a semantically empty phrase. But in any case, I didn't say there was a prohibited reason here, I said that the claim that "at-will employment" means you can hire or fire "for any reason" is false.

We're arguing over semantics now... you get the point I was making. The big picture is the founders felt the OP wasn't going to work out -- and made a very appropriate decision to cut him loose now instead of later.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#247

Post by guybrushT »

comeonnow wrote: post #99

What are your thoughts on not uprooting before you have a formal offer of employment, and a contract signed. Personally, I wouldn't put any wheels in motion until I had a contract in case something like this were to happen, and then if it did they'd be breaking it. I'm not saying it's this persons fault, but I don't necessarily think saying the founders are not good guys (aka bad guys), I think it's more about being…

I sincerely wish you the best...

Thank you!

if you had a similar offer in a month, would you do it differently?

You know thats such a good question. There are many excellent suggestions in this discussion. I would definitely add a cost in the contract - a cost (e.g. severance etc.) in case I am asked to leave for reasons other than performance. This should mitigate the casualness which hurt me last time.

What won't change is that startups are looking for great people, and some people are looking for great startups :) But I would definitely structure the deal with a startup very differently, as a result of this discussion.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#248

Post by [deleted] »

bentoner wrote: post #148
beachstartup wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$5000 is peanuts to work two weeks , uproot your life and reject other, more valid job offers, only to get sand kicked in your face for no reason. in fact it's downright insulting, and most importantly, humiliating to an extreme degree. if there's anything in the world that could be classified as being a bitch, that's it. stop short-changing yourself and technology professionals, you do us all a disservice and it's e…

> a CPA also could not get hired, and let go for no reason, within 2 weeks, without having several avenues of recourse through his professional governing body. What's his professional governing body going to do?

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#249

Post by ChrisNorstrom »

electic wrote: post #87
Zarkonnen wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very depressing attitude. A functioning market relies on information flow, and if this information flow is killed because people are scared, the market stops functioning.

Companies are complex, they are going to have issues. They are going to make bad hires, have drama, bad product launches, and disfunction. Especially startups. But, when you leave or if you disagree with what happened at the company and you air that laundry. It looks bad on you. Trust me, I am going to google you before I hire you and if I see you being a mess online that means you could be a huge mess in my company.…

A growing number of users think HN is Wendy Williams for Startups. They love gossip, drama, and revenge. Don't bother trying to convert them, "name-and-shame" is a growing new attitude in Startups. Every problem and issue is now being aired out in public because it allows people (completely unrelated to the issue) to opinionate and play hero.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#250

Post by tonyhb »

potatolicious wrote: post #197
tonyhb wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not necessarily based on your title. When I went through the process, it boils down to: - Do you have a degree, and experience? Great. Is someone willing to advertise the job to American citizens for a month or so, interview good potential candidates beforehand, and still want you? Even better. Now, just wait for next year's allocation of visa's and you might grab one on the day they're released. Then, wait betw…

> "Is someone willing to advertise the job to American citizens for a month or so, interview good potential candidates beforehand, and still want you?" You're confusing H-1B visas with green card applications. This isn't relevant to work visas, only relevant to permanent residency applications. The H-1B visa does not require exhausting locals before hiring foreigners, all it needs is to demonstrate competence and edu…

Ah yeah. The advertising isn't, you're right. The wait is, though; visa allotments run out fast. Apologies for getting confused.

In some cases you're not applicable for a H1-B (I was a dropout) so my only route was another type which had a several year waiting list. Can't remember the visa name right now, I'll do some googling though.

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