Do Men Suck At Friendship? • Hacker News Board

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#241

Post by Ryoku » Wed, Apr 23, 2014, 5:55 PM UTC

I find it interesting how focused this article is in the "traditional" male gender role. It doesn't even touch the subject of different friendship types and relations when involving other genders than 'male'.

Without denying that sex has it's toll in the physical (duh) and psychological treats of a person, I do believe that traditional gender roles are the only roles taken into account for this article, making a great deal of assumptions on how males act towards friendship. Does anyone know if there are studies such as the ones mentioned in the article that take into account a less black and white view of gender roles or that digs into other types of friendships?

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#242

Post by elohesra » Wed, Apr 23, 2014, 6:03 PM UTC

thelettere wrote: post #204

elohesra wrote: post #141

Has anyone actually read the studies linked by the author to back up his drivel? I'll save you some time: the 2007 study isn't valid even by the low levels of scientific burden required for psychological studies (it's entirely based on self-reporting), and the 1982 study support the opposite conclusion to the author's. In fact, the 1982 study [0] finds that men and women simply have different kinds of friendships, wh…

There are whole field of scientific study based almost entirely on self-reports. As such, there has been much research done on its veracity, which has shown that it is largely valid and reliable when reporting on simple things (like friendship behavior) so long as it's anonymous, does not require introspection(1), and there is no fear of reprisal(2). The 2007 study meets all those requirements, so I see no scientific…

Oh, very well. Thank you for proving that the scientific community disagrees with me, and proving evidence for your point. I can't say I actually agree with those criteria; especially since one is wholly impossible: there is never a possibility that there's 'no fear of reprisal' when the reprisal can take the form of conflicting with one's self-identity. To be honest, to accept a self-report I'd have to see the following:

1) A study which shows that the questions themselves do not introduce bias. An actual study, where multiple groups of participants were asked the same questions in different forms so as to prove the language of the question cannot influence the result. Of course, this would cause every questionnaire and interview study to fail, because the language does indeed affect the results and is thus a confounding variable (which cannot be controlled without pretending that some language "just doesn't affect people", and yet still functions as language).

2) A proof that the demographic of the sample was controlled for all controllable factors other than those measured. For instance, in this study it wouldn't be good enough to test for the correlation between gender and friendship satisfaction by just getting a bunch of men and women: they'd all have to be the same class, race, wealth etc.

3) The study cannot draw conclusions, nor interpret its results as causative. This is really quite self-explanatory: correlation does not imply causation. Yet, especially in sociology and psychology, this logical maxim seems to get forgotten amongst the excitement of having produced a study.

I'm sure there's more objections, but you've already put up with me arrogantly berating the scientific community for 3 points now. If I were allowed to edit my post to state that the scientific community disagrees with me regarding the validity of the 2007 study, I would.

As for an experimental methodology for studying friendship, I can't say that I can think of any studies which would do so and get past an ethics committee (bloody ethicists), but making the study longitudinal over childhood through to young adulthood would help, as it would show what age-bound variables affect the output. It might just be that young adult men are, for instance, too busy developing a career to have friends, or too busy drinking beer to have friends, or whatever; either way, making it longitudinal would allow some of the uncontrollable confounding variables (such a life experiences) to become more apparent.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#243

Post by nzp » Wed, Apr 23, 2014, 6:06 PM UTC

theorique wrote: post #236

nzp wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not really. What about same sex friendships in homosexual men and women? Why would we single out hetero sexuality? As I said in my comment to Colin's post, no one ever makes such a statement for homosexual relations.

Let me put it a different way then. Is it possible to make a general comment on the heterosexual interactions between men and women without implicitly excluding homosexual people? And, is that exclusion sufficient reason that such general comments should never be made? (I'm not answering yes or no to these questions, just figuring out where we want to draw the lines.)

I don't think it's possible in this case. And, yes, I think it is a sufficient reason that such comments shouldn't be made. Not because it's exclusionary (although discrimination is an awful thing, I don't think homosexual people would mind being excluded from the implications of the premise we're discussing), but because it shows how wrong the comment is. The implication is that specifically heterosexual persons have the sex-friendship issue, or if not, then all humans have this issue, in which case the "men and women" part has to be thrown out.

Is there any evidence that friendship, sexual and romantic relations work differently among homosexual people? And to such an extent that the negative tension between sex and friendship exists only with heterosexual people? I don't know of any. Has anyone ever made a comment: "Gay men can't be friends because sex always gets in the way." or "Lesbians can't be friends because sex always gets in the way."?

I'm not implying there's homophobia in this kind of thinking, just very bad, shallow "analysis" of interpersonal relationships (of the kind you tend to get from "women magazines" and "men magazines", no surprise there) and, in some cases, a lot of rationalisation by people who only want infantile sexual relations from persons of desirable sex and don't even try to make friends, although they try to fake it to get sex (i.e. by people for whom friendship was never actually a motivating option).

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#244

Post by DanBC » Wed, Apr 23, 2014, 6:08 PM UTC

elohesra wrote: post #242

thelettere wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are whole field of scientific study based almost entirely on self-reports. As such, there has been much research done on its veracity, which has shown that it is largely valid and reliable when reporting on simple things (like friendship behavior) so long as it's anonymous, does not require introspection(1), and there is no fear of reprisal(2). The 2007 study meets all those requirements, so I see no scientific…

Oh, very well. Thank you for proving that the scientific community disagrees with me, and proving evidence for your point. I can't say I actually agree with those criteria; especially since one is wholly impossible: there is never a possibility that there's 'no fear of reprisal' when the reprisal can take the form of conflicting with one's self-identity. To be honest, to accept a self-report I'd have to see the follo…

About 1) - don't most forms ask questions more than on e using different wording? This helps eliminate people just filling the form out randomly, but couldn't it also help keep language neutral?

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#245

Post by jeromesalimao » Wed, Apr 23, 2014, 6:14 PM UTC

Xcelerate wrote: post #78

> That's because nearly all research into healthy aging has found that the key to a long, happy life is not diet or exercise but strong social connections – that is, friendships. Loneliness accelerates age-related declines in cognition and motor function, while a single good friend has been shown to make as much as a 10-year difference in overall life expectancy. This makes me sad :( My mother passed away from cancer…

I'm not sure where you are located, but back home in Australia they've come up with the idea of "Men's sheds". I think it's a great idea on so many levels.

http://www.mensshed.org/what-is-a-men's-shed/.aspx

I'm not sure if it's the kind of thing your dad would be into (my dad probably not). But sounds like fun.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#246

Post by kristofferR » Wed, Apr 23, 2014, 6:19 PM UTC

Ntrails wrote: post #163

alex_doom wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men's Journal is basically Cosmo. Bullshit journalism and fluff.

Which leads to the inevitable question of what in gods name this garbage is doing on the front page of HN

Without it we wouldn't have had this great debate about male friendships. Sure, the original article may very well be crap, but the resulting debate is not.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#247

Post by mvaliente2001 » Wed, Apr 23, 2014, 6:23 PM UTC

elohesra wrote: post #141

Has anyone actually read the studies linked by the author to back up his drivel? I'll save you some time: the 2007 study isn't valid even by the low levels of scientific burden required for psychological studies (it's entirely based on self-reporting), and the 1982 study support the opposite conclusion to the author's. In fact, the 1982 study [0] finds that men and women simply have different kinds of friendships, wh…

I don't think he attacked the traditional male gender role. In fact, I think the article supports your general opinion. it starts by entertaining the idea of the male friendship deficiency, and even giving some anecdotal evidence.

But then, it turns around. He could enjoy his friendships without sharing "deep feelings", just centering around activities. That's what the ending means, when the wife asks him for entertaining gossips, and he can't tell anyone.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#248

Post by zequel » Wed, Apr 23, 2014, 6:58 PM UTC

brazzy wrote: post #172

meric wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea that feminist thinkers should be an authority on male friendships, since by definition feminist thinkers think from the point of women, and here we are discussing friendships between men. I've a couple of female "friends"[1], and generally when talking to them I often feel all they're doing is telling me how right I am to feel in such and such way, frequently highlighting the differenc…

> when talking to them I often feel all they're doing is telling me how right I am to feel in such and such way, frequently highlighting the differences between "us" and "them", whoever "them" might be, whenever the opportunity arise. (I suppose you'd call that 'gossip'). It's called "emotional validation", and widely acknowledged as something that women are notoriously keen on and men are notoriously bad at providin…

My wife and I kid about it, but to me, emotional validation is the same as a lack of confidence. I have some unpopular beliefs, I don't need them to be validated by anyone. If I did, I would be a sheep.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#249

Post by Bezoar » Wed, Apr 23, 2014, 7:12 PM UTC

elohesra wrote: post #141

Has anyone actually read the studies linked by the author to back up his drivel? I'll save you some time: the 2007 study isn't valid even by the low levels of scientific burden required for psychological studies (it's entirely based on self-reporting), and the 1982 study support the opposite conclusion to the author's. In fact, the 1982 study [0] finds that men and women simply have different kinds of friendships, wh…

I'd sooner say that men and women _currently_ have different kinds of relationships, for the most part. For men who have been conditioned toward independence but who have greater emotional needs than that model allows, the independence model can feel repressive. Likewise, I've known a number of women who lean more toward independence than intimacy. (This switching of relationship models seems to happen more than a little among the trans-men and trans-women that I know.) It isn't clear to me that the relationship categories are linked to anything other than cultural/societal conditioning.

Listening to feminists talk about relationships is actually helpful, in that by acknowledging the basic equality of women, we as men can allow ourselves to form the kind of relationships that we each want individually, rather than the kind that is trained into us from childhood. Escaping from societal pigeonholes can be good for men as well as women.

Re: Do Men Suck At Friendship?

#250

Post by zequel » Wed, Apr 23, 2014, 7:16 PM UTC

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #103

My formative years were somewhat less than ideal (moving every three months, abusive environment, fat before fat was normal, nerdy, etc). I always blamed not being able to make lasting relationships on that. I've now come to the conclusion that 80% of why I suck at friendship is innate, and 20% is learned. I've tried hobbies and meetups to no avail; I just wind up sitting in the corner. I think this is where the 20%…

Like boardgames (ones on boardgamegeek.com, not Monopoly)? It's a great hobby that requires interaction. It's great for ice-breaking imo. Most men need ice broken to make a connection, alcohol helps too. Some shared common thread like kids in the same school helps a lot. Joining a sports league is good too if that's your cup of tea, I've met a number of people that way. It's a good no-pressure way of interacting with your teammates.