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askamathematician.com

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Re: 0^0

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

y=x^2/x and y=x aren't the same thing though. The first is undefined at x=0, the second is not. How does this break algebra?

Because if you can't simplify, you can't treat them as the same, which is a fundamental premise of algebra. I.e. the promise/premise of algebra is that if you take an equation, it remains equally valid when you add, subtract, multiply, or divide both sides by the same expression. If you treat these as distinct, then every division operation where you divide by a variable expression reduces the domain of possible answ…

> "the promise/premise of algebra is that if you take an equation, it remains equally valid when you add, subtract, multiply, or divide both sides by the same expression"

No.

The promise/premise of algebra is that an equation remains equally valid when you perform valid algebraic operations on two equal quantities.

Division is defined as the inverse of multiplication. Multiplying by zero has no inverse, and thus, it is not valid to divide by zero. If you are in a circumstance where you want to divide to solve an equation, you must check to make sure you're not dividing by zero (and write a special case for any circumstance in which you might otherwise have divided by zero.)

> "Solve for f(x) in the following equation (x + 2) * f(x) = x^2 + 4x + 4, where x = -2."

The way you've written it, f(x) is undefined for x=-2. Any value I select for f(2) makes that expression true. Try it -- if f(2)=813, 0 * 813 = 4-8+4. That solution works.

You might prefer to define f(2)=0 because it makes f(x) continuous. But you have to define that value separately; you can't solve for it from the equation, because dividing by (x+2) is not a valid operation for x=-2. You could, alternatively, choose to define f(2)=7 or f(2)=-318 or any other value. Because you've written an equation that allows it.

That's the thing about mathematics. It's very carefully defined and very precise. Your inclination is to try to simplify first, but you're simplifying in a way that is not valid for x=-2 and thereby accidentally making an incorrect statement (that f(2) "should" be zero.) If you simplify properly, you'll see what ubercow said is true -- the solution is f(x)=x+2 except at x=-2, where f(-2) can be any number and therefore you have a continuum of possible solutions.

Re: 0^0

#242
post #231
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a simple definition of the natural numbers and addition, in Haskell: data Nat = Zero | Suc Nat plus :: (Nat, Nat) -> Nat plus (Zero, y) = y -- axiom 1 plus (Suc x, y) = Suc (plus (x, y)) -- axiom 2 one = Suc Zero two = Suc one Here is a proof that plus (one, one) = two: plus (Suc Zero, Suc Zero) = Suc (plus (Zero, Suc Zero)) [by axiom 2] = Suc (Suc Zero) [by axiom 1]

Can you please translate that to mathematics? My request was regarding a formal mathematical proof.

The code I gave translates easily into Agda, a computerized proof checker, and as such more formal than most mathematics. However, here's the same thing in a modernized version of Peano arithmetic. We assume all the usual properties of equality: reflexivity, symmetry, transitivity, and substitution.

    -- Axioms (only 1 and 2 are relevant)
    1. 0 ∈ N
    2. ∀ x∈N. S(x) ∈ N
    3. ∀ x∈N. 0 ≠ S(x)
    4. ∀ x∈N, y∈N. S(x) = S(y) ⊃ x = y
    5. P(0) ∧ (∀ x∈N. P(x) ⊃ P(S(x))) ⊃ ∀ x∈N. P(x)

    -- Definition of addition
    6. ∀ a∈N. a + 0 = a
    7. ∀ a,b ∈ N. a + S(b) = S(a+b)

    -- Proof that S(0) + S(0) = S(S(0))
    9. S(0) ∈ N                     [from 2 and 1]
    10. S(0) + S(0) = S(S(0) + 0)   [from 7 and 9]
    11. S(0) + 0 = S(0)             [from 6 and 9]
    12. S(S(0) + 0) = S(S(0))       [substitution of equals, from 11]
    13. S(0) + S(0) = S(S(0))       [transitivity from 10 and 12]
Edit: Ah, I see I was beaten to it by pavelrub.

Re: 0^0

#243
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are an infinite number of fundamental logical truths out there, but we arbitrarily picked useful ones to make a system of math.

Picking the useful ones is the opposite of arbitrary.

There's an infinite number of potential 'useful' ones too, and we picked some, could have picked others.

Re: 0^0

#244
post #32

Another good reminder on how math itself is arbitrary and made up by humans (often for what's simplest/easiest), and not handed down to us by God. Luckily it's an extremely useful and extendable made up system. I see this all the time with AI/machine learning. Most algorithms are based on assumptions that make the math work out better rather than being aligned with some "fundamental truth." The world is not linear, b…

I do think there is some "fundamental truth" (whether it was "handed down to us by God" or not. Sure, maybe our math system is not able to fully express that truth (and in fact, we are pretty sure it is incomplete--that is unable to proof certain truths), but that doesn't mean it's arbitrary..

It's arbitrary when we create a system out of thin air -- given different axioms (and findings over time) "math" would be extremely different.

Think about it this way -- there's no particular reason computers HAVE to be on a binary system. It's convenient for many a reasons, but there was an era where computers were analog and continuous, and it's feasible to engineer systems using a higher base and be discreet (and many have researched exactly this.) Quantum computers work even more differently too.

Re: 0^0

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly do you mean by fundamental truths here? Mathematics is an internally consistent (for the most part) logical framework that is extremely powerful in expressing our knowledge about the world. However, that doesn't mean that there is some intrinsic correctness about it or its concepts.

If I have three objects and you give me two more then I'll always have five objects. You can call it cinco or 五 but there are still five of them. Likewise, you'll always be able to determine the length of the hypotenuse of a right triangle by its two legs. No matter what system you set up, if you're cutting three boards to build a triangle the length of the big one is absolutely defined by the length of the other two…

The fact that you count something as an object or see the world in discreet terms is also similarly arbitrary. You could see "objects" as something that's more interconnected and thus would count them differently. If we were far smaller and "looking" at things on an atomic level, putting that grouping together would not be quite as likely. And even still, you're focusing on the "discreet" positive space versus the negative space.

There are many ways to view the world that also would create its own system of abstraction and eventually "come out to be true." You're just used to one particular variety and it's all you know, so you call it the truth.

Oi vey, engineers. Everything is so 1D.

I HIGHLY recommend reading this to understand a bit more about how differently the world can be understood given just your culture alone (read: its all arbitrary): http://www.amazon.com/Women-Dangerous-Things-George-Lakoff/d...

Re: 0^0

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that I accept this argument. You're saying that because there are slight inconsistencies that we have to reconcile, math can't possibly given to us from God? Has God never handed anything to humans that had slight inconsistencies in it?

I... okay, but you're not really responding to the intent of the message which was saying that math isn't a bastion of purity and fundamentally and wholly right and perfectly designed. And if math had been handed down it would all be in an old holy book, which it clearly isn't.

Exactly. God here is representative of some singular fundamental truth about the universe, assuming such a thing even exists. And math wasn't created in such a fashion.

Math was designed by humans to be useful, which it very much is. But ultimately it's just a system we made up, and then kept building on top of ad infinitum. Just go exploring into the topology branch of math (one example of many) just to see how remote from what you see around you math can get.

Re: 0^0

#248
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Levying the "authority" of ZFC doesn't change the fact that your definition is still arbitrary. I'm certain you could pick a different definition of natural numbers within ZFC and get 0^0 = 0.

The given definition only tells you what natural numbers are; it doesn't directly tell you what 0^0 is. For that, the set theoretic definition of exponentiation was provided. That definition is not arbitrary, but is an instance of the very general definition of exponentiation given in category theory. Accordingly, A^B is the set of maps from B to A, and for non-empty finite sets, the number of such maps is the number…

A lecture on category theory and ZFC ignores my point.

To run with your example: why must a definition of natural numbers have to involve sets of certain cardinality? You're telling me that because some people came up with a more general definition for natural numbers after the fact, that makes one definition of natural numbers more 'natural' than another.

I claim you're just reinforcing my point: the definitions were chosen to make natural numbers a specific instance. Everything here is chosen in some way to further some goal (usually mathematical aesthetics), and eventually you get down to the bottom and what do you have? A bunch of definitions that one may choose to use or not.

So whether I want to impose 0^0 = 1 by fiat is equivalent to whether I want to assume enough foundations of category theory to prove 0^0 = 1 in that system. You (and mathgrad) are just under the spell that because there is a whole lot more mathematics floating around (and big words and important people working in those fields) it somehow makes the latter less arbitrarily motivated by a desire to make theorems work out nicely. It's certainly pleasing that it does, but that doesn't make it somehow deeper or more natural than a different formalization in which 0^0 = 0. It just serves a different purpose.

This is the entire point of the OP and the original comment: you can generalize the meaning of 0 and 1 and a^b to make it suit your need to express certain theorems and patterns, and that is a key part of the power of mathematics. Whether it's a "truth" or an "axiom" just depends on how far down the rabbit hole you're willing to go, and the distinction is irrelevant because as far as deciding what 0^0 should be they're equivalent.

Re: 0^0

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didnt discuss a function, I discussed a mapping. They are different constructs. Imagine the question like this: you have two groups of people, students and teachers. How many possible ways are there to assign students to teachers? To put it another way, how many arrows would it take pointing from the student to the teacher to illustrate every possible assignment? Now, if there are no students and no teachers, you h…

I am a mathematician I don't need examples. What is your formal definition of a mapping. In mathematic it is normally used as a synonym for a morphism in a given category and in the category of sets this would be a function. So in our context a mapping is a function.

> I am a mathematician I don't need examples.

Falser words were never spoken.

Re: 0^0

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "x * f(x) = x cannot be equivalent to f(x) = x/x" Sure it's equivalent, over a domain not including x=0. This does not break algebra any more than, say, restricting the domain of the square root (when working in the reals) to non-negative numbers. We work in restricted domains in mathematics all the time. > " f'(x) = 2x/x" f'(x) = lim (h->0) [2(x+h)-2x]/h. Since h is approaching (and therefore not equal to) zero, t…

> This does not break algebra any more than, say, restricting the domain of the square root (when working in the reals) to non-negative numbers. Sure it does, because if that is the case, you restrict your domain when you divide by a variable expression. If you divide both sides by x-1, then you effectively rule out 1 from the domain. That's the problem. Now this is not the same as 0/0. The point is that 0/0 is only…

The expression 52x/x has a restricted domain as well (x /= 0). But that's normally not what you mean when you write it. It isn't often you really care about expressions like 52x/x; they are generally just intermediate steps in getting to a real solution.

For example: I have done a lot of work on some equation that is interesting to me, and finally I have reduced it to 5+yx=52x+5. Now obviously the rules of algebra let me subtract 5 from each side and be left with yx=52x, and this subtraction also has no effect on the domains for which our variables may be defined. All is well.

But dividing out the x is what we are concerned with now. Surely y=52 is a solution to the equation - why can this not be true for all values of x?

Well, for nonzero x we have y=52 and nobody will complain. For x=0, though, solving for y is problematic. Note that if x=0, y could be 1, or 33, or any number. If there is some function f such that y=f(x), then it follows that f(x) holds a unique value y for each input of x/=0, but for x=0 we cannot know what y might be; this is what we mean by undefined. Thus we say the domain of f(x) is the set of all real numbers x, such that x is not equal to zero.

If you have been told otherwise, or even gotten away with doing algebra or calculus under the assumption that the domain of our function f may include zero, you are taking a mathematical shortcut rather than performing formal analysis. It is not calculus nor algebra that is broken by saying f is undefined for x=0, but rather your (albeit practically useful) misconception of these systems.

I'll finish with some formal rules of algebra, to hammer this in:

- [P6] Existence of a multiplicative identity: a * 1 = 1 * a = a ; 1 /= 0.

- [P7] Existence of multiplicative inverses: a * a^(-1) = a^(-1) * a = 1, for a /= 0.

These are taken from page 9 of Spivak's Calculus, 3rd edition. He goes on to build the foundations of all of calculus from rules like these. Surely he would not present this as a fundamental axiom of his system, only to immediately (and silently) reject it and build a flawed calculus instead!

Indeed, on pg. 41, when defining functions, Spivak later writes (emphasis his):

> It is usually understood that a definition such as "k(x) = (1/x) + 1/(x-1), x /= 0, 1" can be shortened to "k(x) = (1/x) + 1/(x-1)"; in other words, unless the domain is explicitly restricted further, it is understood to consist of all numbers for which the definition makes any sense at all.

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