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Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

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Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#241

Post by cmelbye »

pekk wrote: post #31
almightygod wrote: post #26

This whole incident is sad. It's incredibly sad for Julie, for everyone at GitHub, for the founders, and for the alleged "crazy" founder wife who was banned from a company she probably sacrificed a lot for

I'm surprised nobody sees sexism in the way that the wife has been stigmatized.

No one cares what her gender is. She doesn't work for GitHub, yet she believed that she had hiring and firing power at GitHub and had the ability to read private chat logs. That is wrong, and she doesn't belong near the company anymore. It would be the same if she were male.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#242

Post by ketralnis »

laureny wrote: post #21

> We know we have to take action and have begun a full investigation. While that’s ongoing, and effective immediately, the relevant founder has been put on leave, as has the referenced GitHub engineer. Pretty much a full admission that everything that Julie said is true. This is great news, but putting these people on leave seems to be too nice. It's clear that these two people obey ethics that are in direct oppposit…

> Pretty much a full admission that everything that Julie said is true.

Bullshit. It just means that they're looking into it.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#243

Post by sockgrant »

SolarNet wrote: post #232
curiousgeorgio wrote: post #208

Of course we may never know for sure exactly what was said (unless everything was secretly recorded somehow... NSA - data, please), but my initial reaction is that this story sounds a bit... exaggerated. Were things said that shouldn't have been said? Probably so. But here's the way I read it from TC: Let's look at what Horvath claims: > character started being discussed in inappropriate places like on pull requests…

Actually of all of these the last one is the only one I think your counter is flat out wrong (all the others seem plausible enough). Why? Because gawking at other co-workers (regardless of genders) in a casual environment is not ok. In a casual work environment people often do light exercise, and they need to feel comfortable to do that without being turned into sex objects. I would hope the men in question have enou…

> In a casual work environment people often do light exercise

Could you elaborate on this? In the work environments I've been in, people go to the gym or outside to work out. I've never been in a work environment where it's acceptable to do your exercising in the office space. What are you talking about -- yoga, bicep curls, jogging, jumping jacks? I've worked at extremely liberal companies but that kind of stuff doesn't happen..

> and they need to feel comfortable to do that without being turned into sex objects

I don't think it's a person's right to hula hoop in an office and then be upset when they attract the attention of the rest of the office, regardless of sex on both sides. It's an unusual thing to do, so it will draw eyes.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#245

Post by balls187 »

SolarNet wrote: post #232
curiousgeorgio wrote: post #208

Of course we may never know for sure exactly what was said (unless everything was secretly recorded somehow... NSA - data, please), but my initial reaction is that this story sounds a bit... exaggerated. Were things said that shouldn't have been said? Probably so. But here's the way I read it from TC: Let's look at what Horvath claims: > character started being discussed in inappropriate places like on pull requests…

Actually of all of these the last one is the only one I think your counter is flat out wrong (all the others seem plausible enough). Why? Because gawking at other co-workers (regardless of genders) in a casual environment is not ok. In a casual work environment people often do light exercise, and they need to feel comfortable to do that without being turned into sex objects. I would hope the men in question have enou…

What if they weren't gawking, but instead watching?

If you are hula hooping out in the open, I don't think it's fair to expect people to look away, no more than it is to expect people to look away if you were playing the hula hoop minigame in Wii Fit.

Gawking and making people feel uncomfortable = bad. Watching coworkers make fools of themselves = priceless.

> You are basically advocating the position of countries that require burqas in public.

Slippery Slope My Friend, Slippery Slope.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#246

Post by SolarNet »

curiousgeorgio wrote: post #238
SolarNet wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually of all of these the last one is the only one I think your counter is flat out wrong (all the others seem plausible enough). Why? Because gawking at other co-workers (regardless of genders) in a casual environment is not ok. In a casual work environment people often do light exercise, and they need to feel comfortable to do that without being turned into sex objects. I would hope the men in question have enou…

I wasn't trying to say that "gawking" is acceptable (sorry if that's the way it came across). My point is that one person's description of people "gawking" may very well have been simply the other people acknowledging their presence. It's pretty hard to prove one way or the other.

That's fair, and Horvath's description is vague:

"What I did have a problem with is the line of men sitting on one bench facing the hoopers and gawking at them"

But it's important to remember these could go the other way as well. Horvath may still feel some loyalty to github and be sugar coating these events. Or you could be right and she is blowing them out of proportion.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#247

Post by balls187 »

sockgrant wrote: post #243
SolarNet wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually of all of these the last one is the only one I think your counter is flat out wrong (all the others seem plausible enough). Why? Because gawking at other co-workers (regardless of genders) in a casual environment is not ok. In a casual work environment people often do light exercise, and they need to feel comfortable to do that without being turned into sex objects. I would hope the men in question have enou…

> In a casual work environment people often do light exercise Could you elaborate on this? In the work environments I've been in, people go to the gym or outside to work out. I've never been in a work environment where it's acceptable to do your exercising in the office space. What are you talking about -- yoga, bicep curls, jogging, jumping jacks? I've worked at extremely liberal companies but that kind of stuff doe…

Definitely.

I think Julie should have spoken to both groups, telling the guys it's not cool to gawk at women, and tell the women if they want to hula hoop, do it some place more private.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#248

Post by sequoia »

When I arrived at this thread, comment two was 'using the information available in the short techcrunch article, I'm now going to PROVE, point by point, how Horvath's claims are false.'

Comment three was 'aha they issued a vague apology, this is basically a FULL ADMISSION that everything Horvath said was true!'

People: when did our brains melt and spill out of our ears? There is not enough public information present to reliably prove or disprove anything at this point; Github issued a nonspecific semi-apology (to wit: "It’s certain that there were things we could have done differently" well, yeah this is usually the case) with some promising indications that they are taking the issue seriously & looking into it.

Now we wait. Stop saying github is admitting to every point of Horvath's assertions! Stop saying Horvath is a liar! You don't know these things! Take deep breaths, listen for a bit, and wait for more information to come out.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#250

Post by dcre »

leccine wrote: post #13

Well Julie's story stinks. Let me just quote the last thigs she wrote and work backwards from that. "Two women, one of whom I work with and adore, and a friend of hers were hula hooping to some music. I didn’t have a problem with this. What I did have a problem with is the line of men sitting on one bench facing the hoopers and gawking at them. It looked like something out of a strip club. When I brought this up to m…

What I think you're missing is that we are only 20 or 30 years out of office environments in which women were primarily there to answer phones and to be looked at.
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