Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

linuxstans.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 570 posts

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#241

Post by Jtsummers »

xp84 wrote: post #136

Serious question: This is a out-of-box "ask for age" requirement. No one is "verifying" anything. Why are we using this misleading headline? Face scans, ID cards, all that stuff that makes everyone nervous, are specifically not a part of this. To imply that it is verification is propaganda. As a parent, I'd be very happy with this "age declaration" method, as I also don't think the 'verification' others push for is a…

Step 1: Shift the burden from service providers to OS providers (on devices owned by individuals).

Step 2: Recognize that the system is trivially bypassed by a kid who sets up their own device without their parents' oversight or parents who just think this is a stupid law and lying for their kids. Or bypassed by anyone using open source operating systems which are (for a feature like this) going to be trivial to amend to always claim the person is an adult regardless of which account is being used.

At this point there are three possible futures that are worth considering:

1. Throw out the rules because they're stupid and everyone with any common sense or sense of decency has been saying it since the start. The service provider is responsible, not the OS developer or device manufacturer. (Best case)

2. Keep the stupid rules on the books and pretend they work. Let the service providers off the hook. (Second best case)

3. Create more rules that effectively cedes more control of personal devices to the government to make this actually work, but the effect of this is to essentially outlaw OSes like Linux and many, many devices and even raw hardware without a government permitted OS pre-installed. (The worst case)

(3) is extreme, but it's the only way that this law actually has the desired effect. (1) and (2) are the most likely outcomes, but reflect that this whole exercise is just a waste of time.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#242

Post by xp84 »

terribleperson wrote: post #226
xp84 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: your last paragraph I actually agree with you, if you mandate that the site has to look for an affirmative signal and if it doesn't get one, has to assume the user is the youngest possible age group. Users would demand the proper support for it. Although it would have to have some teeth capable of biting the client software companies, because for instance, if browser(s) chose to on their own simply send "I'm over…

Yeah, that's pretty much what I am imagining. You're right about needing some teeth - maybe the legislature could define a spec, and penalties for implementing the feature in a commercial product without actually following the spec. I really think all we need is what you describe in your third paragraph. It doesn't need to be bulletproof, it just needs to be an easy way for parents to set the level of content their c…

Exactly. Fortunately, the kids we're most concerned with - young ones who just want to access their brainrot - has very little overlap with Linux users anyway. So, while I hate this hysterical propaganda portrayal as "aGe vErIfIcAtIoN," an "OSS operating system" exception doesn't really bother me, as long as it doesn't let the usual suspects make an end-run ("Darwin is OSS! See! iOS is exempt")

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#243

Post by etc-hosts »

lrvick wrote: post #207
EGreg wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments can hire a hitman to go after you, if you say something wrong. So can international crime syndicates. Will this have a meaningful effect on chilling your speech? https://abcnews.com/amp/US/children-recruited-criminals-indu...

Pretty far fetched an Illinois legislator hires a hitman for a FOSS developer. But to humor you, if they did, the distro would carry right on, so they would be taking a lot of risk with no progress on their objective. I only sign like 1/3 releases these days so I am replaceable now. Decentralized control and decentralized trust was the whole point of stagex.

Representatives of the US government threaten to drone bomb anyone they disagree with all of the time now

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#244

Post by lrvick »

hnlmorg wrote: post #198
misphrasing wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Code is speech. Forcing someone to implement something is legally-compelled speech, assuming no complicating factor like commerce.

I’m not a lawyer and even I know that argument would never hold up given the plethora of other laws that have been implemented through software. Not to mention copyright and patent claims too.

Being afraid and hoping you are never forced to add code to a project you do not want to add is letting the chilling effects work as designed.

We need to all loudly and publicly say "Fuck off, I will defend my rights if needed", so they understand how expensive the fight is going to be.

Fear is power. Do not give your enemies power.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#245

Post by johnsmith1840 »

thrownaway561 wrote: post #8

I don't understand how you are actually going to be able to enforce this when Linux is not "owned" by a single company. Also how is that fine going to work if you don't have any children?

Seems impossible to enforce but the goal I suppose is to hit the biggest players to force a trickle down on average users.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#246

Post by [deleted] »

lrvick wrote: post #244
hnlmorg wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not a lawyer and even I know that argument would never hold up given the plethora of other laws that have been implemented through software. Not to mention copyright and patent claims too.

Being afraid and hoping you are never forced to add code to a project you do not want to add is letting the chilling effects work as designed. We need to all loudly and publicly say "Fuck off, I will defend my rights if needed", so they understand how expensive the fight is going to be. Fear is power. Do not give your enemies power.

[deleted]

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#248

Post by lovich »

dooglius wrote: post #227
JoshTriplett wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I will never show fear "never show fear" and "never engage intelligence" are two different things. Understand what people will do in response to your actions, and act accordingly to achieve the outcomes you want. Please by all means fight the law, and do so intelligently in a way that will actually help.

Can you be specific in how you think he is behaving unintelligently, and what you think that people will do in response to his actions?

Pretending like technical limitations protect him from being in violation of the law like another commentator made an analogy to handcuffing yourself to property you were told to leave?

His comments on this thread itself which establish intent to not comply with the law?

All power to him for going with his morals but he’s making unforced errors and should instead be contacting one of the several activist legal firms that would at least give him advice on how to protect himself and not follow through with this law if not outright pro bono legal defense.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#249

Post by genewitch »

hdgvhicv wrote: post #127
izzydata wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the sense that a website could just ask your OS if you are over a certain age and that age was self declared? That seems fine to me, but why can't the websites just ask me for my self declared age? That's how things used to be and that makes more sense in my opinion because an OS isn't the thing displaying content. It just run whatever it is told to run.

The computer owner can set the age, not the user. I am root on my computers. My 11 year old isn’t root on my computers.

> My 11 year old isn’t root

that you know of. when you were 11 could you get root? I could. I got expelled from a highschool for getting "root" on a DOS machine by holding down the shift key (at 13).

All it takes is one moment of weakness from a parent or not blocking the kid's view of the keyboard, or the kid getting an app that figures out possible passwords from keyboard sounds (it'll be here someday), or any manner of other things, like you forgetting to close your session.

11 year olds aren't stupid.

also there's nearly weekly exploits that get your root on a linux machine, so unless you're blocking arbitrary code downloads, which means you're going to have to whitelist sites you allow your kid to visit, which means they're probably just going to get that stuff elsewhere, as is customary. Again, 11 year olds aren't stupid. any one of them could tell another "here's a script that gets root" and spread it around school. If it became a thing.

I just had a vision of linux being outlawed because it's too insecure

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#250

Post by anymouse123456 »

lrvick wrote: post #89

Linux distro founder here (stagex) I will never be compelled to implement this, and would never merge it. Every release requires quorum signatures by an international maintainer team, and the distro is designed to work offline-first, with some variants not even supporting network drivers in the kernel, so Illinois legislators can eat shit.

THIS. PLEASE THIS.
Post reply on HN