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Terence Tao's ChatGPT conversation about the Jacobian Conjecture counterexample

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Re: Terence Tao's ChatGPT conversation about the Jacobian Conjecture counterexample

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there’s no “intelligence” there BUT There is clearly intelligence there. We have no way to recognise intelligence other than the appearance of intelligence and this very clearly displays that. It's also quite clearly different to human intelligence in some notable ways, but not in any that preclude describing it as intelligent. At least for normal non-pedantic definitions of the word.

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> There is about 150 years of cognitive science experimentation in animals

Yeah that would be relevant if AI were an animal...

As I said, it's clearly intelligent, but a quite different intelligence to that shared by animals.

Re: Terence Tao's ChatGPT conversation about the Jacobian Conjecture counterexample

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not clear at all. What's clear is that this is a very smart man who knows how to use this tool well.

I'd say an entity capable of instructing one of the leading mathematicians of his era is pretty clearly intelligent by any reasonable measure - however it might be arriving at its output.

I think we have wildly different conclusions about what happened here. You see the machine as instructing Terrence Tao, as if it were Plato teaching Socrates about the theory of forms; I see Terrence Tao using the machine to teach himself, like an intelligent student uses a book. In this case, it's just a book that fools us into believing it can think and reason like we do, because it generates language in much the same way we do when we think and reason.

Re: Terence Tao's ChatGPT conversation about the Jacobian Conjecture counterexample

#243
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the problem with mathematics is that it is basically its own language separate from your native tongue. You have to learn dozens of symbols and greek letters and such and memorize what their meaning is in the context of mathematics in order to "follow" a mathematical conversation. Mathematics would be much more approachable if it just used plain English like `sum(0, Infinity, my_func)` instead of a big Greek sigm…

Your translation only makes intuitive sense to you because you are well versed in programming. I suspect if I showed a non-technical person with no background in either math or programming they would think both are nonsense until you explained it to them

My example was contrived, I'm sure some smart people could come up with a SQL-esque language that is even more readable to non-technical folks than programming syntax. At a certain point though, your layman has to know the "atomic" (as in, you can't break them down further) mathematical concepts like "functions" and "infinity":

`sum function(x) from x=0 to x=infinity`

Re: Terence Tao's ChatGPT conversation about the Jacobian Conjecture counterexample

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Math strives to minimize ambiguity, which other fields don't do as much. Non-math fields tend to reuse regular words as jargon (i.e. with specificity of meaning that may fly over the laymen's heads). Social sciences and humanities are most notorious for this, often resulting in non-practitioners not realizing they are out of their depth because they are not looking at symbols from non-Roman alphabets.

That's something only someone who's never studied advanced math could say. Math notation and jargon can be extremely ambiguous and overloaded. "Normal" has about 20 different meanings.

Certainly overloaded but rarely ambiguous. Context will determine which notion of “normal” applies.

Re: Terence Tao's ChatGPT conversation about the Jacobian Conjecture counterexample

#245

Math has some of the most insanely dense and impenetrable nomenclature. I can generally keep my head mostly above water or at least near the surface reading from most STEM fields, perhaps leaning on google/wikipedia a bit, but man, mathematics just so quickly decouples from all common tractable understanding it's insane. Sorry it's a bit of an aside, but I imagine many other otherwise "technical" folks feel the same…

This is also true for almost every other field, even within computer science. The only difference is that a lot of people operate at a very surface level without realizing just how much background knowledge they have accumulated. Think about the number of keywords your average SWE is expected to know. It is rather insane. Cache, stack, heap, process, thread, socket, file, tcp, http, tls, websocks, socks, soc2???, dea…

I studied math through college before learning to program as an adult and becoming a software engineer, and I strongly disagree.

I don't know how to say this in a way that won't sound insulting, but I don't mean it to be insulting. Programming, even systems engineering, is a surprisingly shallow field.

I don't mean that it's easy--it's not, it can be incredibly difficult. Difficult and deep are just different concepts. Difficult refers to how challenged you are. Depth, at least as it appears in math, is closer to a structure where concepts build on each other so that if you don't understand one concept, you can't understand further ones.

Programming can be difficult, and it can be intricate, but it is rarely deep in this fashion. Being deep in this way isn't the most important thing.

If I go into an area of programming that I don't have a lot of experience in (graphics, or the linux desktop environment), I will not be particularly useful, and it will not be easy. But I'll not experience the same type of impenetrability I experience when I try to read a paper on topos theory.

One more way of putting it: people are giving the example of TCP. You can spend a decade learning about TCP (or SQL semantics, or web standards). But what is happening is that you're filling in gaps in your knowledge. Meanwhile, in math, you do four years of undergrad, and even if you're a strong student at a typical university, there are topics that are still years away from you being able to touch them.

Computer science is a mix. Parts are deep, parts are shallow. Parts just are math. The odds that I can read a dissertation in computer science are decent. For math, they're much much much worse.

Re: Terence Tao's ChatGPT conversation about the Jacobian Conjecture counterexample

#246

It's crazy how he suggests simplifications over and over and gets led through the finding. Absolutely bonkers how you can use AI to understand something and map it to your own mental map so efficiently, and of course he's most interested in generalizing or finding a simpler sub-result that would explain it. Just awesome to see new knowledge hit an incredible mind like this. Having these "what if" discussions is what…

> you can use AI to understand something and map it to your own mental map

This "symbiosis" (for lack of better word) of human with AI seems to be an emergent value proposition of AI. In the process of doing stuff with AI, producing artefacts like code diffs, we are continuously able to decide how strong the mental map is of the current stage of the production process.

I could probably have worded this better but I'm sure it's something others have noticed... this choice we are able to make of how high fidelity our own understanding needs to be of the current working problem, and how that choice never really existed prior to AI.

Re: Terence Tao's ChatGPT conversation about the Jacobian Conjecture counterexample

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's something only someone who's never studied advanced math could say. Math notation and jargon can be extremely ambiguous and overloaded. "Normal" has about 20 different meanings.

Certainly overloaded but rarely ambiguous. Context will determine which notion of “normal” applies.

"Context dependent" is basically the definition of ambiguity.

Re: Terence Tao's ChatGPT conversation about the Jacobian Conjecture counterexample

#248

What was most remarkable to me from this transcript, was how strong of an equal the AI agent comes across compared to the user (Tao). And Tao is one of the top mathematicians of modern times. Yes, Tao is guiding it to where he wants to go. But also, Tao is actively learning from it and relying on its explaining, analysis, and inference abilities. You can easily imagine this conversation having taken place between Tao…

>Maybe a year - or two model releases - from now, the AI assistant will be undeniably stronger than Tao, and not an equal anymore.

we're kind of well past that (in my opinion), if you consider that this is the same ai assistant that can help you with a recipe, diagnose a weird sound in your car, help with biology homework, translate languages, and so on.

even in math alone, i think its indisputably already stronger than Tao, considering it has approximately this much depth in ~all of the math subfields.

Re: Terence Tao's ChatGPT conversation about the Jacobian Conjecture counterexample

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It reinforces how to "learn AI" is to first master the problem domain. I can use AI for coding after decades of coding. I can't use it for theoretical physics because I can't evaluate the responses.

> I can use AI for coding after decades of coding. I can't use it for theoretical physics because I can't evaluate the responses. That is what will happen though to future generations: they won't be able to use it for anything because none of them will have the "decades of coding" experience that you have had the privelege to have without AI.

They will have decades of experience with AI and they will be able to guide them by sniffing their hallucinations from single words.

Re: Terence Tao's ChatGPT conversation about the Jacobian Conjecture counterexample

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we have a couple of years of "being good at talking to the LLM about your field of expertise" being a useful human skill, until that too gets washed away

Maybe? At the end of the day, even if they are some insane oracle (pun intended), they're still bounded by training data and how it relates to the real world. Even if they're a near perfect tool, we are still the interface between them and our lived experience. If that stops being the case then why do we care about the output? This assumes it doesn't graduate to just killing all of us and doing it's own thing, but wi…

they're still bounded by training data and how it relates to the real world.

Yes and no. They can extrapolate and build upon the training data, as was the case with the last dozens of math proofs

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