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Leo's first encyclical attacks technological messianism

economist.com

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Re: Leo's first encyclical attacks technological messianism

#241
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but they are not true AI [2] Let's ask the operator of a Chinese room to give us a novel math proof. Go on, I'll wait.

A novel math proof does not make something AI.

Or it makes it AI in the broad sense, but not AGI.

Maybe it's time to borrow "Virtual Intelligence" terminology from Mass Effect - something that's 'smart' but that doesn't have its own true volition or ability to materially self-improve.

Re: Leo's first encyclical attacks technological messianism

#242
post #110
post #93

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Amusing. By yoking taxicab drivers to the other two, the argument attempts to make them seem like victims. However, most people’s direct experience with taxicab drivers and the resulting improvement under Uber directly contradicts that sentiment. This probably has the opposite effect and makes it seem like the AI companies aren’t so bad if they’re akin to the guys who freed us from cabs.

I always feel like this take is exclusively made by New Yorkers. I never had a problem with taxies in Texas. I had to schedule a pickup time, yes, but they always showed up, the taxis were clean, they were fast, they were helpful, and they were kind. Like that whole "medallion" thing and taxi driver retirement livelihoods being destroyed because their medallion became worthless. Gotta be like five cities that use the…

SF resident here; taxis were always terrible here too. Calling dispatch was hit-or-miss whether or not they'd even answer you. If they did, they'd always say "20 minutes", regardless of where you were and what time of day it was. A decent chunk of the time the taxi would never show up, and if they did, it wouldn't be 20 minutes. And, unlike Manhattan, good luck trying to hail one on 95% of SF's streets.

Re: Leo's first encyclical attacks technological messianism

#243
post #188

They think a next token predictor model is alive or can become AGI/ASI. Altman talked about making a religion. Amodei talks about "building a God" and meets with religious leaders (including the Vatican). I'm convinced these CEOs have "AI psychosis" [1]. LLMs are extremely powerful pseudo-AI and will bring a pseudo-singularity, but they are not true AI [2] and a human at the wheel is still needed for the foreseeable…

I am getting tired of hearing "next token predictor" from carbon-based facial expression predictors. You are saying this like an argument which allows somehow estimate upper bound of possible influence of these entities. And I do not see how this help to make predictions. It sounds to me like saying "but air is just molecules bobbing around". OK, that's true, but does it help calculate wing aerodynamic profile? Yup,…

It poses a simple problem. Take humanity back not that long ago into the past and language didn't even exist - our expressed token base was practically 0. We went from that discovering the secrets of the atom, putting a man on the Moon, and more. If you put an LLM in that starting point, they're going to do nothing but endlessly cycle over basically nothing. If you give them an infinite amount of time and processing, that wouldn't change.

This same issue simultaneously demonstrates how humans are not anything at all like token predictors. No matter how much time you spend remixing the tokens of primitive man, you don't get 'and here is how you land on the Moon' from it.

Re: Leo's first encyclical attacks technological messianism

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most businesses require sunk costs or debts, and it's also often what is required for new ideas take place in an established market. Whether they burn VC money or the bank's money to gain a foothold, is immaterial. Uber did a great thing here and made a product that people like more, for less money. More drivers, way more global availability, more customers, and better cars, all while being cheaper. That is a quintes…

Uber sold dollars for $0.75 until their competition was destroyed, and then they raised their prices.

And yet somehow Uber and Lyft (and Waymo) in San Francisco are still usually cheaper (inflation-adjusted) than what taxis used to cost 15 years ago here.

I agree that dumping is generally bad, and perhaps laws against it should have been enforced against Uber. But the taxi system deserved to be destroyed. They sucked, and there was really no political/business way out of that system other than someone violating regulations on "what is a taxi" until it stuck. I'm not a "means justify the ends" guy in general, but in this case I think it worked out how it should have.

Re: Leo's first encyclical attacks technological messianism

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the misanthropy as ironic. They're applying the same reductionist logic to humans, not because they are misanthropic, but to illustrate that it doesn't help us understand the case we can all agree on. "Humans aren't sentient either" is definitely not the takeaway.

What is definitely being argued unironically is "it doesn't matter that humans are sentient", and I would still consider that misanthropy

I don't see where they said that; could you give me a quote? It does not seem to me that they are addressing humans at all, except as a foil to LLMs.

Re: Leo's first encyclical attacks technological messianism

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The technologists who create it believe they should control it I think it goes deeper than this when you listen to them talk. They truly think society will be re-ordered by this technology... and they should be in control of that re-ordering rather than democratically elected governments.

Democratically elected governments can't reorder a cookie right now. We even had one out tariffs on steel, thinkinf this would be good for jobs here. If there was 0.1 seconds of thought they'd realize any manufacturing job you make from a steel tariff cuts 2 more well paid trade jobs

I would rather society not be reordered at all, if the only parties capable or willing to do a reordering are big tech companies, especially of the kind run by people like Sam Altman.

Re: Leo's first encyclical attacks technological messianism

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracies don’t necessarily pick the best leaders but they give a veto to the people such that the worst leaders don’t last long. A technocracy can build high speed rail in a decade but it can also institute multi decade one child policy, multi year zero-covid, barricade people into their own homes and ban entire industries at the whim of a single leader. There is less course correction.

Worst leaders don’t last long? Boy I wish that were true.

We have to define "long". On the scale we're talking about, 8 years of a bad US president is not long, even though it feels that way right now.

Re: Leo's first encyclical attacks technological messianism

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am getting tired of hearing "next token predictor" from carbon-based facial expression predictors. That's not even a clever swipe, and it's tiring seeing such a knee-jerk reaction to a completely accurate description. LLMs are next token predictors. People are not. Humans have an inner world and subjective experience. Humans learn through their experiences, not just backprop. Token predictors are lesser, they are…

> People are not. Humans have an inner world and subjective experience. Humans learn through their experiences, not just backprop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie But this is complicated and takes us sideways. Let's say somehow we can determine if LLM has inner world or/and subjective experience. Will this new gathered piece of information affect your estimate of upper bounds of LLM capabilities? I…

The Philosophical Zombie thought process is dumb, because zombies don't exist, so the entire premise depends on something that quire frankly might be impossible for the very reason it is arguing against.

Re: Leo's first encyclical attacks technological messianism

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pope John XXII publicly taught erroneously re: death and the Beatific Vision. Jean Gerson threatened to burn him at the stake and in general there was much public resistance, from royalty to common folk.

"Erroneous" is an opinion. Papal doctrine is the word of God until a subsequent pope says otherwise. Jean Gerson is entitled to his opinion, even if speaking that opinion made him a heretic.

> Papal doctrine is the word of God until a subsequent pope says otherwise

No, that’s Hyperpapalism, which is an error.

The Pope does not have the authority-power to transform error into truth, nor can he make “new truths” (of the Faith), whatever that might mean. He does have the solemn duty to faithfully hand on and explain the Apostolic Tradition. In an extra-ordinary act of his office, the Pope can, without error, define the proper understanding of Catholic teaching on a matter of faith or morals.

In the case of John XXII he proposed something false as pertains to Catholic doctrine, repeatedly, in public sermons. He was rebuked for it and recanted before he died. What he taught was not somehow “intermittently true”, it was an error through and through, and it was completely right that his subjects called him out on the matter.

Re: Leo's first encyclical attacks technological messianism

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry for being salty, a bit hyperbole perhaps in the 2:1 numbers. I draft and write some code for construction companies and personally saw layoffs and not taking work due to increased material costs. The structural companies we worked with similarly did a few layoffs. The average pay of these jobs was 60k+. Manufacturing of steel is very competitive and I haven't seen the American steel drop in price. I can't perso…

What is the alternative to buildings? Outdoor schools, factories and dental offices?

The alternative is usually more-crowded schools, fewer factories, and more expensive dental care (due to higher real estate costs). If the people in charge of these decisions can't justify the expense of building more, then the things that would have happened in those buildings just don't happen, and the existing infrastructure has to strain to keep up.
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