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The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

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Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#241

Post by quikoa »

johnfn wrote: post #178

"Laughing" at how bad the code in Claude Code is really seems to be missing the forest for the trees. Anthropic didn't set out to build a bunch of clean code when writing Claude Code. They set out to make a bunch of money, and given CC makes in the low billions of ARR, is growing rapidly, and is the clear market leader, it seems they succeeded. Given this, you would think you'd would want to approach the strategy tha…

If Claude Code truly was worth something they'd sell it instead of forcing its use with a subscription.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#242

Post by adrian_b »

sunnybeetroot wrote: post #149
freediddy wrote: post #62

No, I completely disagree with this entire article. Bad code or good code is no longer relevant anymore. What matters is whether or not AI fulfills the contract as to how the application is supposed to work. If the code sucks, you just rerun the prompt again and the next iteration will be better. But better doesn't matter because humans aren't reading the code anymore. I haven't written a line of code since January a…

This entirely depends on the product. If it’s your own personal blog, then for sure no need to read the code, but a change in a banking architecture would be irresponsible to not have an understanding of the actual code change.

Yes, vibe coding is perfectly acceptable if it is coupled with financial and penal liability of the authors of the program for any damages caused by that program, so if they choose to use it they must be willing to bet on its suitability.

In case of damages, vibe coding should be an aggravating circumstance, i.e. gross negligence.

When the use of a program cannot have any nefarious consequences, obviously vibe coding is fine. However, I do not use many such applications.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#243

Post by jaccola »

sigbottle wrote: post #183
jaccola wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a context-specific scale. I work in computer vision. Building the surrounding app, UI, checkout flow, etcetera is easily Level 6/7(sorry...) on this scale. Building the rendering pipeline, algorithms, maths, I've turned off even level 2. It is just more of a distraction than it's worth for that deep state of focus. So I imagine at least some of the disconnect comes from the area people work in and its novel…

am layman. is CV "solved" at this point, or is there more work to be done?

Far from solved! Though, like seemingly everything, it has benefited from the transformer architecture. And computer vision is kind of the "input", it usually sits intersecting with some other field i.e. cv for medical analysis is different to self driving is different to reconstruction for games/movies.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#244

Post by 0x457 »

AstroBen wrote: post #176
tock wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah I believe codex has similar issues. Terrible code quality but goes to show it doesn't really matter in the end.

> it doesn't really matter in the end if you have one of the top models in a disruptive new product category where everyone else is sprinting also, sure..

Code quality never really mattered to users of the software. You can have the most code and still have zero users or have high user frustration from users that you do have.

Code quality only matters in maintainability to developers. IMO it's a very subjective metric

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#246

Post by f-serif »

dd8601fn wrote: post #212
f-serif wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not AI but perfect example is Cloudflare. They have implemented public suffix list (to check if a domain is valid) 10 different times in 10 different ways. In one place, they have even embedded the list in frontend (pages custom domain). You report issues, they fix that one service, their own stuff isn't even aware that it exists in other places.

Meta has four different implementations of the same page to create a “page” for your business… which is required to be able to advertise on any of their services. Each one is broken, doesn’t have working error handling, and prevents you from giving them money. They all exist to insert the same record somewhere. Lost revenue, and they seem to have no idea. Amazons flagship ios app has had at least three highly visible…

It's just lazy engineering. They get assigned a task, they must implement it or fix it to keep their job. Proper implantation takes more knowledge, more research and more brain pressure.

AI could play a big rule here. Husky (git hook) but AI. It will score lazy engineering. You lazy implement enough times, you loose your job.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#247

Post by alephnerd »

tombert wrote: post #228
alephnerd wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually a pretty good callout. Observability into how a foundation model generated product arrived to that state is significantly more important than the underlying codebase, as it's the prompt context that is the architecture.

Yeah, I'm just a little tired of seeing these pull requests of multi-thousand-line pull requests where no one has actually looked at the code. The solution people are coming up with now is using AI for code reviews and I have to ask "why involve Git at all then?". If AI is writing the code, testing the code, reviewing the code, and merging the code, then it seems to me that we can just remove these steps and simply P…

Yep.

Also, the approach you described is what a number of AI for Code Review products are using under-the-hood, but human-in-the-loop is still recognized as critical.

It's the same way how written design docs and comments are significantly more valuable than uncommented and undocumented source.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#248

Post by awesome_dude »

tombert wrote: post #88
semicolon_storm wrote: post #14

It’s truly strange that people keep citing the quality of Claude code’s leaked source as if it’s proof vibe coding doesn’t work. If anything, it’s the exact opposite. It shows that you can build a crazy popular & successful product while violating all the traditional rules about “good” code.

I suspect if people saw the handwritten code of many, many, many products that they used every day they would be shocked. I've worked at BigCos and startups, and a lot of the terrible code that makes it to production was shocking when I first started. This isn't a dig at anyone, I've certainly shipped my share of bad code as well. Deadlines, despite my wishes sometimes, continue to exist. Sometimes you have to ship a…

> and then replacing those hacks with better code just never happens

Yeah, we even have an idiom for this - "Temporary is always permanent"

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#249

Post by ch4s3 »

mm263 wrote: post #240
joenot443 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> TBH Claude Code is surprisingly shit to use given the technical resources and the amount of money behind it. What harness would you recommend instead?

pi, oh-my-pi, opencode - none of them have subsidized Claude though

Opencode can't lazy load skills, mcps, or agents and has limitations on context. It's a total nonstarter from my experience using it at work.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#250

Post by [deleted] »

kfarr wrote: post #227
saulpw wrote: post #8

> That wouldn’t even be a big violation of the vibe coding concept. You’re reading the innards a little but you’re only giving high-level, conceptual, abstract ideas about how problems should be solved. The machine is doing the vast majority, if not literally all, of the actual writing. Claude Code is being produced at AI Level 7 (Human specced, bots coded), whereas the author is arguing that AI Level 6 (Bots coded,…

To clarify, does this mean that Anthropic employees don't understand Claude Code's code since it's level 7? I've got to believe they have staff capable of understanding the output and they would spend at least some time reviewing code for a product like this?

[deleted]
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