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My MacBook keyboard is broken and it's insanely expensive to fix

tobiasberg.net

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Re: My MacBook keyboard is broken and it's insanely expensive to fix

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I buy a can of soup and find glass in it, I have a valid claim against the manufacturer. It's a matter of holding someone accountable for fraud or negligence, not a matter of regulation. The proper route is a court, not a bureaucratic agency that preemptively dictates production methods on the assumption that every manufacturer is a potential prisoner. > get in my face if I don’t follow their rules If a shopkeeper…

> not a bureaucratic agency that preemptively dictates production methods on the assumption that every manufacturer is a potential prisoner. I see it exactly the other way around. I want this to be clarified upfront, not after I’ve already cut my tongue. What I don’t understand is why market participants are being given special treatment here. There are laws, and they must be followed. That applies just as much in ot…

> why market participants are being given special treatment here. There are laws, and they must be followed.

Laws are contextual, they depend on more fundamental principles. A regulation that says "you must use this specific screw size" isn't a law in the same sense as "you shall not murder." When a "law" violates the principle of non-initiation of force, when it tells a manufacturer how to exercise his property rights under threat of imprisonment, it's not really a law but edict.

The issue is who decides and when. A court decides after harm occurs, based on evidence of actual negligence or fraud. A regulatory agency decides before anyone does anything, based on hypothetical risks, and compels compliance under threat of force.

> Which problem is personal and which isn't?

A personal problem is one that doesn't involve the infringement of rights against another person. Most problems are personal. One's homelessness doesn't give one a right to another's property. The moment you say "your need obligates me," you've crossed the line into compulsion.

> in your worldview, there is no morality at all. . . . People like you behave toward the state like moody teenagers toward their parents.

That tells me enough about the depth of your study on this subject. Morality is a science of identifying the principles by which a rational being sustains his life. You're not discussing that science, you're reaching for a metaphor.

> But I read what you write and interpret it.

"Cognitive dissonance" is an accusation about the state of my mind, not an interpretation. You don't get to call me internally contradictory and then say "I'm just interpreting."

Re: My MacBook keyboard is broken and it's insanely expensive to fix

#242

>Here’s hoping governments regulate laptop manufacturers to actually make repairable machines in the future. No, this is a bad solution. If you want a repairable machine, buy one. They exist. Others have already mentioned Framework, but there are other options that aren't that far down the spectrum either. One of the things macbook users praise the most is "build quality", which often means the solidity of the device…

Regulation is the only reasonable answer to this sort of problem. The specific suggestion may not be the best possible regulation, but we have several hundred years of proof that individual market-based action cannot solve what is basically an insurance problem.

Re: My MacBook keyboard is broken and it's insanely expensive to fix

#243

>Here’s hoping governments regulate laptop manufacturers to actually make repairable machines in the future. No, this is a bad solution. If you want a repairable machine, buy one. They exist. Others have already mentioned Framework, but there are other options that aren't that far down the spectrum either. One of the things macbook users praise the most is "build quality", which often means the solidity of the device…

"No, this is a bad solution. If you want a repairable machine, buy one."

Fair to push back ... but your assertion implies one of the greater fallacies of free markets.

Free markets don't magically work like that.

When there are only a handful of participants in any given market, they don't provide all the options as we would like.

It's 100% true that Apple makes some 'good tradeoffs' for build quality - but it's also 100% true that they make tradeoffs for vendor lockin.

Lightning connectors are great examples of that.

The answer may be regulation. It depends, and it has to be careful.

While it's a very 'iffy' situation with respect to keyboards, if we move the conversation to 'batteries' you can see how we might want regs that enable some way for consumers to mechanically replace batteries - and definitely 3rd party repair - and plausibly enable standard 3rd party batteries.

These companies have incredibly monopoly and monopoly power, they reason their margins are so high is partly because of demand, but also because of 'market power' which can significantly distort innovation (think apps on iPhone, totally captured market etc).

Unfortunately it's never so easy as 'always regulate or always not'.

Re: My MacBook keyboard is broken and it's insanely expensive to fix

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> your car can easily hurt a total stranger whereas the consequences of your choice in laptop are strictly personal. You know that safety for pedestrians is also a very tightly regulated car safety category, right? Obviously, there's not much that can be done if you get hit by a car going 70mph, but the fact that most people should survive a 30mph impact with a modern car is mostly thanks to regulations requiring cr…

Not in the US. Specific pedestrian safety features are not included in cars sold there due to lack of regulation. FMVSS was planning a regulation modelled after ECE R127, then the administration changed and no progress since...

Well yes, which is why most American cars are not approved for sale over here.

Re: My MacBook keyboard is broken and it's insanely expensive to fix

#245

>Here’s hoping governments regulate laptop manufacturers to actually make repairable machines in the future. No, this is a bad solution. If you want a repairable machine, buy one. They exist. Others have already mentioned Framework, but there are other options that aren't that far down the spectrum either. One of the things macbook users praise the most is "build quality", which often means the solidity of the device…

This was my first thought too. Not everything you personally dislike needs to be illegal. MacBooks are great as long as you have the money. OP could keep looking for 3rd party repairs, etc.

> Not everything you personally dislike needs to be illegal.

I'm having a hard time seeing why making stuff more difficult to repair just so that people are incentivized to throw it away and buy a new one, should not be illegal. If not for the anti-customer attitude, at least for the amount of waste and environmental destruction it results in.

Re: My MacBook keyboard is broken and it's insanely expensive to fix

#246
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I completely agree. But they can get away with it because we depend on the platform more than the individual apps. And yes, Tahoe is shiny hot garbage piled on top of so much broken software, just to push an effect trick. I'm not sure how I feel developing with SwiftUI when Apple clearly can't make it work for their own apps.

> we depend on the platform more than the individual apps The only way you actually depend on the platform is if you do Mac OS / iOS development. However, I happen to work on a project that requires both Windows and Linux, so I get reminders every day of why I should stay on Mac OS as desktop. Caveat 1: no, I'm not upgrading to Tahoe or iOS 26. Caveat 2: I wouldn't dream of running a server on anything but Linux. Des…

With all the valid reasons not to upgrade to iOS 26, here's one strongly suggesting doing so:

https://cloud.google.com/blog/topics/threat-intelligence/dar...

Re: My MacBook keyboard is broken and it's insanely expensive to fix

#248
post #43

I replaced the keyboard MacBook Air M1 keyboard with a $20 model from Amazon and it's been going strong for a full year. I had spilled ginger ale on the original. The board is riveted in, but there are enough screws to hold the replacement in place. Removing the board is a shockingly violent process, but it worked for me. Keyboard: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CQBVMM3X (price has gone up). Video of rivets breaking: ht…

Well done! This is the sort of "old HN" spirit that I love. Though if I ever need to do this myself I think I would try using a tiny "crowbar" to break each rivet individually, just to spare myself from cutting my hand.

Re: My MacBook keyboard is broken and it's insanely expensive to fix

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was my first thought too. Not everything you personally dislike needs to be illegal. MacBooks are great as long as you have the money. OP could keep looking for 3rd party repairs, etc.

> Not everything you personally dislike needs to be illegal. I'm having a hard time seeing why making stuff more difficult to repair just so that people are incentivized to throw it away and buy a new one, should not be illegal. If not for the anti-customer attitude, at least for the amount of waste and environmental destruction it results in.

You might be interested in the vast world of public policy.

There's more to the world than banned / not banned.

In this instance, people might want a sensible pragmatic government to levy against companies that have high numbers of items ending up in eWaste processing (or discarded in fly tipping) and offer reductions to companies that invest in eWaste processing and collection.

There are also legitimate total lifetime cost of item models that suggest clean, fast, simple manufacturing that leads to a product hard to deconstruct might actually be "cheaper" in time, resources, and energy across a large consumer population than a functionally equivalent item designed to be "unbuilt" and rebuilt (ie repaired).

Re: My MacBook keyboard is broken and it's insanely expensive to fix

#250

They do this by riveting the entire keyboard assembly to the top case. Meaning you can’t just replace the keyboard, you have to replace the entire top case. As others have already alluded to, drills and self-tapping screws exist, as do replacement keyboards without the top case. In many other machines, it is common for the factory to use rivets on initial assembly, but to service you drill them out and replace with b…

> In many other machines, it is common for the factory to use rivets on initial assembly, but to service you drill them out and replace with bolts or screws

That's surprising. I haven't had many brands of laptops, but I haven't seen rivets where screws should be. Not talking about Macs here.

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