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Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

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Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#241

Post by vova_hn2 »

adrian_b wrote: post #149
vova_hn2 wrote: post #80

> forced to make the switch > users that are now being forced to use unfinished software > frustration of being forced to use the new hotness > actual users are forced to use it Can confirm, Kristian Høgsberg and Drew DeVault personally came to my house and and installed Wayland on every computer I own. They made me watch it. It was horrible. Jokes aside, I think that it is worth remembering that open source develope…

The open source developers can definitely force you to do a lot of work. Whenever they make changes to the program that they are maintaining, which break backwards compatibility, for which an example is replacing X11 with Wayland in the Linux distribution that you may have used for many years, then that forces the users affected by the changes to do potentially a lot of work, in order to find alternatives. For some s…

No one "forced" you to make some code that you downloaded from the Internet "a fundamental component" of your system. You made this decision yourself. They even warned you about the lack "warranties ... of fitness for a particular purpose".

Why are you now trying to blame someone else for this decision?

Honestly, this attitude is so irresponsible and childish.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#242

Post by trenchgun »

bigyabai wrote: post #127
xantronix wrote: post #52

Wayland can never be an adequate replacement for X11R6, despite its stated purpose, because its design fundamentally chases specifying a protocol for heterogeneous implementations of, what I suspect to be one thing: Apple's WindowServer. In specifying Wayland, focusing on compositing, while expecting major projects already committed to standards built atop the X Window System like XDND, ICCCM, et cetera, to band toge…

> clearly hasn't worked out for reasons that seem self-evident to me. One reason is that Xwayland exist and works flawlessly for the majority of casual and professional applications. Better than native x11, in my anecdotal experience.

Why is it better than native x11?

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#243

Post by tliltocatl »

jdougan wrote: post #12

I'm still of the opinion that the right direction is something architectEd more like NeWS with better underlying language support. If you're going to break stuff make it a real improvement.

We basically have it, it's called Blink (and it's a dumpster fire for unrelated reasons).

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#245

Post by Crespyl »

rasz wrote: post #207
dralley wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thing with Pulse Audio People cursed the name for years, because it exposed all of the terrible, glitchy audio hardware drivers and refused on general principle to work around the issues to the degree that previous audio solutions had. And the result was that while the experience was inconsistent and buggy for years, it did eventually drag the Linux audio stack into a better place.

PulseAudio dragged linux to replacing that stinkin pile of garbage with PipeWire.

The argument that can be made is that we never would've gotten PipeWire without going through PulseAudio first.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#246

Post by happymellon »

throwawa14223 wrote: post #234
kibwen wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all open-source. If you think the maintainers are trying to sabotage the codebase, you have the freedom to fork it.

I don’t get all of what’s going on but from the outside it seems like the xLibre guys got a lot of negative attention for doing that.

If you don't know what's going on, why comment?

A guy decided that after getting all his patches rejected because they cause tests to fail, doesn't compile, etc. that the problem is everyone else and decided to fork XOrg.

He then announced that the problem wasn't his code that didn't compile but DEI so based the entire forking around being a political conservative.

Everything I've seen written by him shows him to be insufferable, thats where the negative attention comes from.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#247

Post by thayne »

> Projects will drop Wayland support and go back to X11

I think that is incredibly likely to happen.

I think that the switch to Wayland has hindered the Linux destop in some ways, and mistakes have definitely been made. But at this point wayland is generally good enough and switching back to X11 won't really accomplish anything helpful.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#248

Post by wutbrodo »

righthand wrote: post #9

Wayland was designed exclusively i3 style compositors and has been stuck there ever since not a “simple desktop”. It is incredibly pathetic that you can’t even open a window in that same place you closed it on Wayland. No one involved seems interested in solving any of the usage problems and if you look at various threads it’s finger pointing at other software. The rule should be if Wayland isn’t going to supply a ti…

> Wayland was designed exclusively i3 style compositors

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool i3 (now sway) user. I don't even use floating windows. Wayland has still been an awful experience, broke a bunch of workflows for me

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#249

Post by helterskelter »

cyberrock wrote: post #233
jauntywundrkind wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a pox that such an old slow moving distro as Mint somehow is people's first port of call. I don't know how this happened, how Mint rooted itself so well (in 2006 it was fresh!), but this perception that you should use the slowest moving oldest possible dustiest Linux is the best possible thing Microsoft and Apple could spread to convince the world to believe. If you are going to jump into Linux, dont sell yourse…

>I don't know how this happened, how Mint rooted itself so well I'm pretty sure it was due to nonfree codecs and drivers not being in other distros by default. The mainstream distros only have themselves to blame.

They were one of the few distros at the time which had a sane out-of-the-box desktop experience for non-tech people, back when Ubuntu was pushing (the original) Unity and GNOME was still the the early days of 3.x. Drivers and codecs were easy to install as well, generally speaking, without having to hit the forums or ask your tech family member for help.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#250

Post by __d »

lostapathy wrote: post #124
__d wrote: post #99

So, compare this with say the Python2 to Python3 migration. Similar motivations: the developers had some legacy decisions that were unfixable without breakage. But they were sick of it, and decided to just go for it. Most end users didn’t care about those issues. The few that did were happy to pay the cost of switching. Everyone else clung to Python2 for years because migrating was high cost and low value. It took ab…

Did perl5 to perl6 actually happen? I feel like perl mostly fell out of favor along the way.

Disclosure: I'm not intimately familiar with all this.

I think Perl5 was originally planned to be replaced by Perl6. Then Perl6 took much longer than anyone expected, and kinda ended up in a different place. Perl5 was re-anointed as the once-and-future Perl, and what had been Perl6 became Raku.

If I remember correctly, somewhere in the middle of all that there was talk of running Python (and other languages) on the new Perl6 VM.

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