Live data from Hacker News

UBI as a productivity dividend

scottsantens.substack.com

241–250 of 278 posts

Re: UBI as a productivity dividend

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An income subsidy does the same thing at lesser cost. Whether that subsidy is a UBI or a wage supplement is to some extent a political choice: we got the EITC instead of a proper UBI (managed as a "negative" income tax bill for low-earning folks) largely due to political objections to the notion of getting money "for doing nothing".

Yet the state pension tells us that isn’t the case. The state pension is a UBI allocated by age rather than physical area. We have millions of data points showing that when people receive sufficient to live on they stop working. The result is political pressure to remove the state pension or increase the age at which it is received. If UBI worked as you suggest then the resulting increase in productivity would drive…

Disingenuous at best.

Sixty five year olds qualifying for a pension is worlds away from twenty year olds looking to learn or start a business.

Re: UBI as a productivity dividend

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to work if you want to get paid. Otherwise you will get fired. The obligation of the state is to provide you with a guaranteed alternative job offer, not a guaranteed income. It’s up to you if you take up the state’s offer or not. The UBI removes the motivation to work and turns everything into volunteering. The result is a rise in the “reservation wage gap” - the amount the private sector has to pay to get…

One issue is that there's X% (debatable) of people who can't work for reasons that are complex or hard to explain. For many, even if they are physically able, you kinda don't want them to. I mean, people who will create negative utility in a workplace or cost more in supervision expense than you get from them as output. They create hazards for others by being drunk or on drugs on the job, or by harassing or bullying…

That confuses two points. Employees sell labour hours. At the basic living wage those hours are interchangeable between all people offering them. Even to the extent of age or infirmity. That’s what “unskilled labour” means.

The conversion of those hours into labour services is why the private sector is allowed to profit. If they want “better quality hours” then they have to bid up the price of those hours.

That should be market determined, rather than being administratively set as the gap between unemployment benefit and the minimum wage. You’ll be surprised how well the private sector can use hours once they see people doing the basics of turning up on time and doing something.

When we sentence offenders to “community service” we give them a job as rehabilitation, along with all the support mechanisms to straighten out lives. If we can do that for offenders, we can do that for everybody.

Re: UBI as a productivity dividend

#243
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but people with lower incomes spend, and mostly on necessities, I think the idea is that most of those necessities would become more expensive (naturally or artificially due to price-fixing) if the poorest suddenly had more financial power. In the system as it stands, it seems to me like it'd just result in a bunch of money going to grocery giants and their suppliers, landlords, medical, etc.

Yeah this is the downstream effect I had in mind. You could say we'd increase supply to meet the demand but that hasn't really worked out with housing for example

Housing is limited by supply of land. For basic goods we'd have no trouble producing more.

Re: UBI as a productivity dividend

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A UBI is a method of achieving the same effect as progressive taxation without the complexity and perverse incentives of tracking everyone's income and applying different marginal rates. Suppose you have a tax system with progressive tax brackets and then a needs-based welfare system with benefits phase outs. It turns out, those two things (progressive rate structure and benefits phase outs) basically cancel each oth…

Mathematically equivalent does not mean human psychologically equivalent. e.g., people prefer a discount, even if the actual final numbers are the same. The framing matters

So do something that works exactly like a UBI but frame it as giving them a discount. Call the UBI a refundable tax credit.

Re: UBI as a productivity dividend

#245
post #162
post #42

If you believe UBI can work, why do you think communism failed?

Seems to be ok in Alaska.

I don’t think Alaska has the kind of UBI people are discussing here? You probably cannot survive on $1000/year. In that situation it doesn’t seem much different to social programs standard in Europe + progressive tax.

Re: UBI as a productivity dividend

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They benefit from greatly lowered tax rates on their earned income Lowered marginal tax rates. Raising the marginal rates on the lowest earners is raising the effective rates on the lower middle class. That they don't get anything is essentially the purpose of your proposal. > and high growth because you don't need to 'soak' higher-earning folks, who only pay moderately progressive rates. But did you actually have…

> Raising the marginal rates on the lowest earners is raising the effective rates on the lower middle class. Those are just clawback rates. The lower middle class don't need UBI in order to pay for the necessities of life, and most UBI proposals don't expect them to be net recipients, any more than they'd be net recipients of current welfare. > it's also lowering the effective rate on everyone above them That's balan…

> The bottom clawback rates apply to a smaller part of the population, that can escape them simply by earning more than the UBI breakeven point.

That's not true. One of the issues any serious UBI proposal needs to face are the increasing demands of the labor market. A couple of generations ago, there were still plenty of opportunities for people who had little to offer beyond a pair of hands and some work ethic. Today not so much.

The bottom end of the labor market consists of a nontrivial number of people who are not productive enough to earn a living wage. But there are still societal benefits from having them work for living, instead of being passive welfare recipients or turning to crime. To make that happen, even a low wage should increase the net income significantly above UBI.

Re: UBI as a productivity dividend

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They benefit from greatly lowered tax rates on their earned income Lowered marginal tax rates. Raising the marginal rates on the lowest earners is raising the effective rates on the lower middle class. That they don't get anything is essentially the purpose of your proposal. > and high growth because you don't need to 'soak' higher-earning folks, who only pay moderately progressive rates. But did you actually have…

> Raising the marginal rates on the lowest earners is raising the effective rates on the lower middle class. Those are just clawback rates. The lower middle class don't need UBI in order to pay for the necessities of life, and most UBI proposals don't expect them to be net recipients, any more than they'd be net recipients of current welfare. > it's also lowering the effective rate on everyone above them That's balan…

> The lower middle class don't need UBI in order to pay for the necessities of life, and most UBI proposals don't expect them to be net recipients, any more than they'd be net recipients of current welfare.

The premise of them receiving it isn't so they can buy corn, it's so they can save up a down payment on a house or have enough savings that if their car breaks down they're not completely screwed. They're supposed to get the money.

> That's balanced by the gradual progressivity of tax rates on upper-middle incomes.

That's not balancing it, it's further exacerbating it. You then have the upper middle class paying less than the full marginal rate, along with everyone above them for that part of their income range.

> The low rates for the lower-middle class are actually ensuring the exact opposite of that claim.

I feel like this is still confusing effective rates with marginal rates.

Suppose you have a 50% marginal rate up to $30,000 in income and then a 5% marginal rate up to $60,000. Alice makes $32,000/year. In this system her effective tax rate is ~47%. By contrast, Bob makes $60,000 and has an effective tax rate of 27.5%. Moreover, between the two of them they have $92k in total income of which the government gets $31600, ~34%. Why would we want Alice to have to pay ~47% instead of ~34% so that Bob, who makes almost twice as much, can pay 27.5% instead of ~34%?

Adding the UBI would lower both effective rates and result in a progressive rate curve, but why would we want to add "progressive" rates that make the system less progressive?

> The upper incomes are the source for the bulk of income redistribution in the usual optimal system as it comes out of these analyses; they just don't face prohibitive rates.

But why would you need prohibitive rates at all?

US GDP is ~$31T with a population of ~340M. To give a $12,000 UBI to every single person would be ~$4T, i.e. 12.9% of GDP, implying that's the uniform marginal tax rate you would need to collect the money. That's assuming the tax is applied uniformly (and applies to corporations as well as individuals etc.), and maybe you want to exempt non-profits from the tax or something, but as a ballpark estimate that's the number and it's not crazy high. Especially when it's a universal transfer payment and the majority of people are just getting most or all of it back immediately.

> The bottom clawback rates apply to a smaller part of the population, that can escape them simply by earning more than the UBI breakeven point.

That's not how that works. If you had a 50% marginal rate up to $30,000 and you're deciding whether to take a $32,000 job or not work, you're only getting $16,900 to put in your pocket from taking that job. Being "out of the clawback range" doesn't stop the majority of the pay from still being in it. And, of course, there are jobs that don't even pay that much, or some people might want to work part time and you're essentially screwing them for not making enough money.

> Meanwhile the high rates there help make the whole tax schedule sustainable. It may be a counterintuitive point but it's confirmed by rigorous, automated analysis.

Why do we need automated analysis to do arithmetic? You can avoid a huge increase in the rate on lower income people with a much smaller increase in a universal rate because the former only applies to a small proportion of total income and the latter applies to all of it.

> The most likely response is not necessarily arbitrage, it might just be earning enough that you start paying low marginal rates after the UBI is clawed back.

As soon as you have non-uniform marginal rates, arbitrage is going to happen. We don't have to speculate here because we currently have non-uniform marginal rates and it's extremely common. Family members in a lower tax bracket get added to the payroll to soak up taxable income at the lower rate.

Re: UBI as a productivity dividend

#248
UBI doesn't address structural inequality, and because of inflation it doesn't make necessities (health care, housing, child care, education, food) affordable. We've suffered conservatives opposing simple policies of:

* progressive taxation

* wealth tax

* government training workers, procuring supplies, and investing in advances

...but they're all gone now, so let's get going on this stuff.

Re: UBI as a productivity dividend

#249
I'm (again) shocked that so poor article on UBI triggers any serious discussion: I mean, where's a math behind it? For US alone 1400usd for each adult and 500usd for kid would generate...4,95 trillion fucking dollars annually!

Won't any BUI proponent explain simply HOW (realistically) can it happen?

Re: UBI as a productivity dividend

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Raising the marginal rates on the lowest earners is raising the effective rates on the lower middle class. Those are just clawback rates. The lower middle class don't need UBI in order to pay for the necessities of life, and most UBI proposals don't expect them to be net recipients, any more than they'd be net recipients of current welfare. > it's also lowering the effective rate on everyone above them That's balan…

> The lower middle class don't need UBI in order to pay for the necessities of life, and most UBI proposals don't expect them to be net recipients, any more than they'd be net recipients of current welfare. The premise of them receiving it isn't so they can buy corn, it's so they can save up a down payment on a house or have enough savings that if their car breaks down they're not completely screwed. They're supposed…

> They're supposed to get the money.

We're talking about the lower middle class, they can sustain themselves by working, essentially by definition. They can get the money (compared to the status quo) - by working, because they'll be paying negligible overall rates on their own earnings as soon as the UBI is fully clawed back. Redistribution (UBI) is costly (being funded by high rates on the higher incomes, that deter them from earning more), so in most practical proposals it is largely limited to those who really are unable (or perhaps unwilling, but in a near-optimal system such 'unwillingness' is most often explained by practical inability) to earn enough for a tolerable life. Giving any part of the middle class a net-UBI only to claw it back with high rates (as it must be at some point in the tax schedule) wouldn't leave them any better off in practice and it would set up pathological anti-work incentives. It's a pretty clear non-starter.

> You then have the upper middle class paying less than the full marginal rate

If you're talking about effective rates being less than marginal rates, that's just inherent to any progressive taxation. There is in fact a strange theoretical result that the very top earner should ultimately be facing a zero marginal rate on their very last dollar of income since any non-zero rate on that "top" level is pure overhead, but of course that's a bit of a curiosity and hard to apply in practice, except maybe as a broad caution against the common idea of levying punitive rates on the very highest incomes. Progressive taxation at the high end is still the practical optimum.

> I feel like this is still confusing effective rates with marginal rates.

I feel like you're disregarding the fact that the high-rates at the bottom are purely UBI-clawback rates; in fact, $30,000 per year seems quite infeasible as a UBI range, so ISTM that you're inadvertently getting the wrong idea entirely about what the system might imply!

Post reply on HN