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Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

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Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#241

Post by some_random »

dirasieb wrote: post #123
zahlman wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure you can, you just need an anonymous voting mechanism that's sufficiently naive. You use the verifiable process to restrict access to that anonymous mechanism. In Canada, at both federal and provincial levels, you walk up to a desk and identify yourself, are crossed off a list, and handed a paper ballot. You go behind a screen, mark an X on the ballot, fold it up, take it back out to another desk, and put it in t…

> paper ballots and requiring IDs isn't that racist? i've heard it repeated but i'm not so sure

It's been a talking point specific to the voting system in the US, strangely no other country seems to think it's an issue and as soon as the topic changes no one in the US has an issue requiring IDs for things.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#242

Post by brainwad »

bell-cot wrote: post #238
ge96 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still annoyed in the US I can't just show up and vote. The one time I wanted to vote "sorry you're not registered" like what? I'm a citizen just let me vote, oh well. And I was too late to register at the time.

Without a real-time, probably national "who has voted & where did they vote" database - how would a "just show up and vote" system block a citizen from voting once in each of multiple jurisdictions?

You can solve that simply by putting all such votes inside signed envelopes, and waiting to count the contents until all the envelopes can be checked for duplicate voter details. In Australia this can be forced on you if you are caught double voting, or you can opt into it if you don't want to appear on the (public) electoral roll (and hence can't be ticked off), or you're voting from outside your electorate (so they don't have a copy of your electorate's roll).

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#243

Post by rayiner »

alistairSH wrote: post #121
jfengel wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA threads the needle by simply not having verifiable voting. And it turns out it works pretty well. Despite countless hours and lawsuits dedicated to finding people who voted more than once, only a handful of cases have actually turned up. It's not that there are no checks. You have to give your name, and they know if you've voted more than once at that station that day. To vote more than once you'd have to pre…

This. The process in my precinct is roughly... - Enter queue - A front of queue, show ID of some sort (various accepted) to volunteer - They scratch you from the list and hand you a paper scantron sheet - Go to private booth, fill out scantron - Go to exit, scan ballot (it scans and then drops into a locked box for manual tally later, if necessary) The "easy" ways to vote fraudulently are also easily caught... fake I…

> As noted, the number of fraudulent votes are astonishingly small, given the amount of money spent on proving otherwise

How would you even know? The fact that prosecutions for fraudulent voting are rare tells you nothing. Prosecutions for tax evasion are also rare. Does that mean nobody evades taxes? If you have a system that’s insecure, how would you even know when it’s been compromised?

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#244

Post by chrisandchris »

zahlman wrote: post #99
ritzaco wrote: post #12

I don't care how much maths and encryption you use, you can't get out of the fact that things can be anonymous (no one can know how you voted) or verifiable (people can prove that you only voted once) but not both. - Switzerland usually gets around this by knowing where everyone lives and mailing them a piece of paper 'something you have' - South Africa gets around this by putting ink on your fingernail I've read qui…

Sure you can, you just need an anonymous voting mechanism that's sufficiently naive. You use the verifiable process to restrict access to that anonymous mechanism. In Canada, at both federal and provincial levels, you walk up to a desk and identify yourself, are crossed off a list, and handed a paper ballot. You go behind a screen, mark an X on the ballot, fold it up, take it back out to another desk, and put it in t…

> you walk up to a desk

I think the day I _must_ walk go a desk to vote is the day I'll give up. Voting by mail is one of the best things occuring here (in Switzerland). You get the voting stuff by mail, make your crosses, put it back into the postal box and it's delivered for free (as in beer) to the government.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#246

Post by JoeAltmaier »

bell-cot wrote: post #238
ge96 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still annoyed in the US I can't just show up and vote. The one time I wanted to vote "sorry you're not registered" like what? I'm a citizen just let me vote, oh well. And I was too late to register at the time.

Without a real-time, probably national "who has voted & where did they vote" database - how would a "just show up and vote" system block a citizen from voting once in each of multiple jurisdictions?

Hard enough to get a person to vote once. Probably not a big problem.

The big problem is, the folks who count the votes and cheat. They can invent an arbitrary number of votes to swing their guy.

Let's worry about the problems that matter.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#247

Post by brainwad »

themafia wrote: post #192
phoronixrly wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about a machine voting system with paper fallback. You as a voter can review the paper protocol from your vote. If there is distrust, the justice system can review the paper trail as well.

What is the rush to tally the ballots? Do we need an _instant_ count? Isn't that actually a negative attribute as far as security is concerned? The distance between the election and the taking of the office is often months. I just don't understand why electronics need to be involved at all in this system.

FWIW Swiss elections are counted in at most 6 hours, usually quicker except for big cities. If your system takes longer than that, it's a bad system.

Also it's not just elections to offices, but also votes on yes/no propositions, which can take effect more or less immediately.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#248

Post by IX-103 »

dirasieb wrote: post #123
zahlman wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure you can, you just need an anonymous voting mechanism that's sufficiently naive. You use the verifiable process to restrict access to that anonymous mechanism. In Canada, at both federal and provincial levels, you walk up to a desk and identify yourself, are crossed off a list, and handed a paper ballot. You go behind a screen, mark an X on the ballot, fold it up, take it back out to another desk, and put it in t…

> paper ballots and requiring IDs isn't that racist? i've heard it repeated but i'm not so sure

Depends on what qualifies as an ID and how hard it is to get one. But unless you're actively providing them to people that need them with no extra work or travel on their part then you're going to be discriminating against people with less money or time.

In the case where disproportionately more poor people are of a certain race then it can be seen as racist (as it affects the population of that race differently). If the reason that disproportionately more poor people are of a certain race is because of racism, then a policy that disenfranchised the poor would effectively extend economic discrimination into political discrimination.

Though I tend to think that even if we remove the economic effects of racism such that disenfranchising the poor couldn't be called racist, they would still be classist and should be avoided where possible.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#249

Post by mkehrt »

some_random wrote: post #241
dirasieb wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> paper ballots and requiring IDs isn't that racist? i've heard it repeated but i'm not so sure

It's been a talking point specific to the voting system in the US, strangely no other country seems to think it's an issue and as soon as the topic changes no one in the US has an issue requiring IDs for things.

Voting is a civil right. We need to have a system that allows everyone who is allowed to vote, to vote. Many people don't have IDs and it is an onerous process to get one. Any system that requires IDs for voting suppresses these people's civil rights.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#250

Post by anonymars »

MengerSponge wrote: post #82

> Tech Enthusiasts: Everything in my house is wired to the Internet of Things! I control it all from my smartphone! My smart-house is bluetooth enabled and I can give it voice commands via alexa! I love the future! > Programmers / Engineers: The most recent piece of technology I own is a printer from 2004 and I keep a loaded gun ready to shoot it if it ever makes an unexpected noise.

Indeed -- https://m.xkcd.com/2030/
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